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Obersoldaten and their Timing

Pip
27 Oct 2020, 20:38 PM
#21
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 20:24 PMKatitof


Since games with skilled players on both side are being played - you don't fight lost battles, you retreat from them to avoid unneeded attrition and feeding vet to opponent.

Unless you specifically feed opponents infantry vet, its extremely rare sight to even see most squads at vet2 by the time 1st med tank arrives and obers arrive well before that.

Speaking about 1s and 2s here.


This isn't the case. Units reach Vet2 routinely in 1v1s before medium armour hits the field.

Random example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuTHR9YRDSY&t=2608s
27 Oct 2020, 20:47 PM
#22
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

make it so that obers can be built at the same time as MG is unlocked, and only upgrade to mg34 until scwhere is built

You can't be serious.
27 Oct 2020, 20:51 PM
#23
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

i am quite serious, but i forgot to mention to get rid of the smoke grenade until schwere.
point is to get it out earlier right?
for 340 MP, 4 dudes with k98's arent exactly OP, while PG's and shocks are running around
27 Oct 2020, 20:56 PM
#24
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

i am quite serious, but i forgot to mention to get rid of the smoke grenade until schwere.
point is to get it out earlier right?
for 340 MP, 4 dudes with k98's arent exactly OP, while PG's and shocks are running around

If they come out that early, they can easily farm veterancy. Ober squads in green cover are not easy to dislodge, and the 4x K98s are deceptively powerful. In team games this would be a nightmare. Also, the Blendkorper 2H is a veterancy ability and not a tech ability, and I like it that way to keep things unique.
27 Oct 2020, 20:57 PM
#25
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

sounds like a good idea but should be tested first
27 Oct 2020, 20:57 PM
#26
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 20:56 PMSpoof

If they come out that early, they can easily farm veterancy. Ober squads in green cover are not easy to dislodge, and the 4x K98s are deceptively powerful. In team games this would be a nightmare. Also, the Blendkorper 2H is a veterancy ability and not a tech ability, and I like it that way to keep things unique.


have u not played vs UKF? xD

many mainline inf is difficult to dislodge in cover mate
27 Oct 2020, 20:59 PM
#27
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 20:57 PMAlphrum


have u not played vs UKF? xD

many mainline inf is difficult to dislodge in cover mate

Come on man, you know I'm talking specifically about the Obers.
27 Oct 2020, 21:14 PM
#28
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

i am quite serious, but i forgot to mention to get rid of the smoke grenade until schwere.
point is to get it out earlier right?
for 340 MP, 4 dudes with k98's arent exactly OP, while PG's and shocks are running around

You'd have to get rid of Ober elite Kars as well.
27 Oct 2020, 21:20 PM
#29
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

PG's and shocks are running around

Ok, I'm actually reconsidering this since Kar98 Obers are pretty close to PGs and Shocks and they would come out at similar times. But this would be a big problem in 3v3s and 4v4s though.
Pip
27 Oct 2020, 21:27 PM
#30
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 21:20 PMSpoof

Ok, I'm actually reconsidering this since Kar98 Obers are pretty close to PGs and Shocks and they would come out at similar times. But this would be a big problem in 3v3s and 4v4s though.


3v3s and 4v4s typically have a plethora of explosive options to deal with infantry blobs, however. Particularly ones as expensive as Oberblobs.
27 Oct 2020, 21:29 PM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 21:27 PMPip


3v3s and 4v4s typically have a plethora of explosive options to deal with infantry blobs, however. Particularly ones as expensive as Oberblobs.

And none of it is accessible in 3rd minute.
Pip
27 Oct 2020, 21:48 PM
#32
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 21:29 PMKatitof

And none of it is accessible in 3rd minute.


Will you have the manpower to support a blob of Obers by the third minute, while preventing the enemy from having any sort of light vehicle or other method of dealing with them?

Isnt this the same sort of argument people use against Penals? They're too expensive to be able to get map control with?
27 Oct 2020, 22:01 PM
#33
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

if they were to be implemented like i suggested, i suppose a cost increase would balance it out a little, from 340 to 360?

i mean, im no stats expert, but obers out the gate are pretty much just enchanced grenadiers when it comes to rifle performance?

with obers build time, i think earliest you can get a obers would be at 5mins?
that would be some of the earliest elite infantry, but only be ''a complete elite infantry'' at 15min?
just like the rangers out the gate are good, but you need time(resources/munitions) to fully maximize their performance.

i think perhaps only SOV would struggle a bit vs this suggestion, don't see UKF or USF problem.

night vision STG would ofc be unlocked at same time as the MG34 upgrade.

only vetted obers are good, and sinking 340ish MP early into an early obers might pay off in the long run
27 Oct 2020, 22:37 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


i mean, im no stats expert, but obers out the gate are pretty much just enchanced grenadiers when it comes to rifle performance?

They bitchslap infantry sections HARD and can easily burst models down due to very high accuracy(over 80% at FAR range with 16 dmg) and just murderfuck any unvetted infantry in game.

There is a reason they come so late you know, allowing them into early game means 100% light vehicle play against OKW being forced upon allies, which then is hardcountered by puma.

Penals, even at their absolutely strongest at least bled menpower, Obers don't due to target size of 0.7 (PGs have 0.8).

Or, to put it differently, imagine that we're getting old soviet indistry passive and T-70 arrives in 4th minute instead of 7th. That is the level of impact early game obers would have on infantry play.

You basically would have to butcher their stats into bit stronger volks to make them reasonable before their current timing and suggesting they would come at 3rd minute is a sheer ignorance of their stats.
27 Oct 2020, 22:58 PM
#35
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 22:37 PMKatitof

They bitchslap infantry sections HARD and can easily burst models down due to very high accuracy(over 80% at FAR range with 16 dmg) and just murderfuck any unvetted infantry in game.

There is a reason they come so late you know, allowing them into early game means 100% light vehicle play against OKW being forced upon allies, which then is hardcountered by puma.

Penals, even at their absolutely strongest at least bled menpower, Obers don't due to target size of 0.7 (PGs have 0.8).

Or, to put it differently, imagine that we're getting old soviet indistry passive and T-70 arrives in 4th minute instead of 7th. That is the level of impact early game obers would have on infantry play.

You basically would have to butcher their stats into bit stronger volks to make them reasonable before their current timing and suggesting they would come at 3rd minute is a sheer ignorance of their stats.


Unit / MP Cost / Popcap / HP / Dmg10 / Dmg20 / Dmg 35

Obers 340 9 457 25,7 20,8 14,8
Penal 300 8 480 26,4 18,6 10,8
Falls 340 9 386 33,6 25,6 18
Pgren 340 8 400 47,2 28 4

Falls are probably stronger than current k98 Obers and they dont make OKW an unstoppable force. The performance between vet0 volks and vet0 5 men sections is probably bigger than the difference between vet0 Obers and vet 0 5men section. Still people say its fine and ignore how OKW get dumpstered in 1vs1.

And yeah if they are too strong at that timing just adjust their vet0 rec acc from 0,7 to ~0,80-0,85 and move it to vet 4-5. The current timing is unreasonable for an unit that dies way to fast against explosives, has not at and still doesnt outperform other elite inf that arrives at cp 2-3. Playing heavy light vehicle build (and thats meta in 2vs2 atleast) feels really bad without JLI/Falls.
27 Oct 2020, 23:09 PM
#36
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I really don't wanna see obers any sooner tbh. They were made earlier already and nobody builds them so the only way you are going to see people build em is if they are broken in their timing.

Slowing down WFA allies critical mass beyond just having munitions would do a wonder for making obers at their current timing as well as volks scale a bit more fluidly.
Pip
27 Oct 2020, 23:33 PM
#37
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 22:58 PMGeblobt


Unit / MP Cost / Popcap / HP / Dmg10 / Dmg20 / Dmg 35

Obers 340 9 457 25,7 20,8 14,8
Penal 300 8 480 26,4 18,6 10,8
Falls 340 9 386 33,6 25,6 18
Pgren 340 8 400 47,2 28 4

Falls are probably stronger than current k98 Obers and they dont make OKW an unstoppable force. The performance between vet0 volks and vet0 5 men sections is probably bigger than the difference between vet0 Obers and vet 0 5men section. Still people say its fine and ignore how OKW get dumpstered in 1vs1.

And yeah if they are too strong at that timing just adjust their vet0 rec acc from 0,7 to ~0,80-0,85 and move it to vet 4-5. The current timing is unreasonable for an unit that dies way to fast against explosives, has not at and still doesnt outperform other elite inf that arrives at cp 2-3. Playing heavy light vehicle build (and thats meta in 2vs2 atleast) feels really bad without JLI/Falls.


Fallschirmjager even had the extra utility of acting as an Ambush unit, and being able to be dropped anywhere you like. Obers don't have this luxury, and somehow are going to be unreasonably broken? I'm not really seeing it.

I'm interested in seeing how JLI compare... Though It's admittedly rather hard to just go from their pure stats, as their real strength is their Snipe (And ability to outrange infantry at vet. Im not imagining this part, right?)
27 Oct 2020, 23:39 PM
#38
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 22:37 PMKatitof

allowing them into early game means 100% light vehicle play against OKW being forced upon allies, which then is hardcountered by puma.

Like it isnt the case already. UKF always gets AEC and USF either sturt or AAHT, let alone soviet T70. If as alies, you skip LVs then you are roflstomping your opponent really hard.
27 Oct 2020, 23:42 PM
#39
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 23:33 PMPip


Fallschirmjager even had the extra utility of acting as an Ambush unit, and being able to be dropped anywhere you like. Obers don't have this luxury, and somehow are going to be unreasonably broken? I'm not really seeing it.

I'm interested in seeing how JLI compare... Though It's admittedly rather hard to just go from their pure stats, as their real strength is their Snipe (And ability to outrange infantry at vet. Im not imagining this part, right?)


You're not, they get extra range
27 Oct 2020, 23:51 PM
#40
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


i think perhaps only SOV would struggle a bit vs this suggestion, don't see UKF or USF problem.

You underestimate how powerful obersoldaten KARs are... they can reliably beat IS is long range cover to cover fights and can wreck rifles with a nukenade... sov meanwhile has absolutely 0 response to 5 minute obers beyond alt F4 or shocks... your suggestion will make the worst faction ingame completely unplayable...
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