Why Soviets are OP

it does... the answer is the panther is fine...

So according to you a Panther should have a 70% chance to damage a medium at range 50 and and SU-85 should have a chance of 80% range 60 and 104% once vetted.

what? if the opponent buys an SU-85 as area denial to your cheaper panzer 4 and ONLY your cheaper Panzer 4 then its a clear win on your end... all you simply have to do is to punish the soviet player for this by using infantry...

How many games have you won because your opponent build a su-85.

let me ask you then as to why alot more people field pumas as opposed to SU-76s? theres a good reason why the SU-76 is barely used if at all...

I just explained people make Puma to counter units like the T-70 not counter Cromwell/Sherman.

yeah and for some dumb reason people still want to nerf the worst faction in the game...

I think most people aren't trying to nerf it. They are trying to rebalance obviously overpowered units and obviously underpowered units.

So according to you a Panther should have a 70% chance to damage a medium at range 50 and and SU-85 should have a chance of 80% range 60 and 104% once vetted.

yep... the panther is still somewhat decent against infantry while being armored and faster... the panther can in fact solo the SU-85 1v1 pretty easily and it has no chance of escaping... only when infantry is involved does the SU-85 stand a chance but hey soviet infantry is made of the finest quality swiss cheese unless doctrines are involved...

now if the SU-85 were fast and turreted on top of having a great gun it would most certainly be OP... but at the moment it trades almost everything for its powerful gun... its most certainly balanced...

there is another tank destroyer though which does have a turret and is crazy fast while having a top of the line gun... thats the unit you should be looking at... not the SU-85

How many games have you won because your opponent build a su-85.

youre not getting the point... its about forcing the enemy to react to you and to overcommit resources...

Why are you guys making suggestions for 2015 when it's 2020? There MIGHT be another balance patch and you people are posting wild suggestions to shake up core rosters.

Get a grip, any change is gonna be light stuff like removing 10% RA bonus from 5man Grens, +10sec Osttruppen recharge, Su76 slight mobility buff, riflemen snare availability buff etc. stuff that's surefire not gonna cause issues.

Suggests 5% pen chance nerf that affects 5 units, at least 3 of which either doctrinal and/or basically never seen.

"you people are posting wild suggestions to shake up core rosters. Get a grip"


Yes, changing the SU85 is a slightly bigger change than removing/granting 10% RA on a doctrinal ability. But don't act like it would be a complete redesign of a faction. Especially since you even put Rifle snare on your list which decently changes USFs early-mid LV counter and replacement of late game wipes. Complete over-exaggeration.

yep...

Well it seems we look thing differently.

Well it seem we look thing differently.

aye... id guess its a matter of perspective on the point of the panther..


however i think we all can agree that the jackson needs to be toned down...

Suggests 5% pen chance nerf that affects 5 units, at least 3 of which either doctrinal and/or basically never seen.

"you people are posting wild suggestions to shake up core rosters. Get a grip"


Yes, changing the SU85 is a slightly bigger change than removing/granting 10% RA on a doctrinal ability. But don't act like it would be a complete redesign of a faction. Especially since you even put Rifle snare on your list which decently changes USFs early-mid LV counter and replacement of late game wipes. Complete over-exaggeration.

You wanna nerf a weak faction to change the roles of 2 units and you’re acting like it’s no big deal.

No way dude.

Not to mention there’s no way in hell the su85 is nerfed, it’s not OP whatsoever.

Also it’ll change nothing, the su76 is ignored because it’s a trahs unit, not because of the su85.

I feel like the su85 is the most balanced TD. If any of them need changes it's the Jackson, and then the FF but I think it's mostly fine too

Looking through this thread, people really don't seem to understand why the T70 is what it is.

The T70 is so good because Soviets are way on the back foot until it shows up. Soviet early/mid game Tech is MP intensive, their main line infantry bleed MP because they get outclassed by enemy weapon upgrades and grenades. Zis Guns are forced out early on due to Flame HT or PanzerII rushes.

As a Soviet player you are holding on for life until the T70 shows up. Players don't always go for T70 because the SU76 is bad, they go for it because they lose if they don't. And even then Soviets don't have an impressive win rate.

Looking through this thread, people really don't seem to understand why the T70 is what it is.

The T70 is so good because Soviets are way on the back foot until it shows up. Soviet early/mid game Tech is MP intensive, their main line infantry bleed MP because they get outclassed by enemy weapon upgrades and grenades. Zis Guns are forced out early on due to Flame HT or PanzerII rushes.

As a Soviet player you are holding on for life until the T70 shows up. Players don't always go for T70 because the SU76 is bad, they go for it because they lose if they don't. And even then Soviets don't have an impressive win rate.

Real talk

Well if you nerf the su85 how does the stock soviet army cope with the huge axis armour values? The t34/76 has some of the lowest pen in the game. You can't do that otherwise you're forcing soviets into commanders to counter specific doctrinal units which is unhealthy.

As has been said, lowering the pen slightly isn't going to ruin the soviet, especially since it gets a sizeable pen increase with vet.
My dream however is deflection damage for all "heavy" TDs so that a balance can be struck between armour being OP and completely countered depending on the patch.

As has been said, lowering the pen slightly isn't going to ruin the soviet

Yes it is, Elephants already break teamgames completely. If you nerf the su85 pen the only way soviets can kill an Elephant is literally ram and IL2, nothing else. At least now a couple su85s can poke enough to kill it.

And AGAIN, why make that change? The su85 in no way shape or form needs a nerf. The su76 needs a buff in mobility to be viable, not an su85 nerf.

Yes it is, Elephants already break teamgames completely. If you nerf the su85 pen the only way soviets can kill an Elephant is literally ram and IL2, nothing else. At least now a couple su85s can poke enough to kill it.

And AGAIN, why make that change? The su85 in no way shape or form needs a nerf. The su76 needs a buff in mobility to be viable, not an su85 nerf.

If the su85 is the only answer then there needs to be changes regardless. An option that wasn't available when the su85 was buffed sky high was ptrs penals which eat elefant for dinner as an example.
Aemour doing something is equally important as tools to counter it and there should be a middle ground found.

Yes it is, Elephants already break teamgames completely. If you nerf the su85 pen the only way soviets can kill an Elephant is literally ram and IL2, nothing else. At least now a couple su85s can poke enough to kill it.

And AGAIN, why make that change? The su85 in no way shape or form needs a nerf. The su76 needs a buff in mobility to be viable, not an su85 nerf.

Pen nerf with vet. Vet0 performance remains the same.

Su76 needing buff doesn't mean other units can't be changed (though i don't think any buff will make the Su76 desirable).

- Revamp ISU-152 commanders - it cannot be that commander has elite infantry, heavy tank and late game off map. Commander itself counters every counter - brainless. My idea is to replace late game IL-bombing run with 0 CP ability, like: light "s" mine and smoke nades/barrage. Those changes should be implemented with removal of stuka dive bomb in jeager armor. Those combo is definatly too strong in maps like Minsk/Rails. It's really boring to see it almost every game on those maps.

Devil's advocate observation:


Soviet Commander:

• Elite Infantry
  
• Endgame Offmap
  
• Superheavy Tank (dual role)
  
  

Wehrmacht Commander:

• Endgame Offmap
  
• Superheavy Tank (single role)
  
  

Widely suggested change:

Soviet Commander:

• Elite Infantry
  
• Superheavy Tank (dual role)
  

Wehrmacht Commander:

• Superheavy Tank (single role)
  
  

So you get a Brummbar to counter this Elite Infantry blob (with smoke for your MGs, if Shocks), but no there's also an ISU behind them, wrecking your infantry when it doesn't wreck your tanks.


I don't really mind getting something different(and more usable) than the Stuka Dive Bomb for one of my favorite doctrines with OST, as it needs munitions for Riegels anyway, but SU commanders being OP should not somehow necessitate a nerf to their (false) equivalents.

the soviets have a lower winrate than OKW
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105597/1v1-automatch-stats/page/1#post_id822826

can you read? What was my first question? It was: do you talk about 1v1? than you are correct. in teamgames sov are OP like hell.

can you read? What was my first question? It was: do you talk about 1v1? than you are correct. in teamgames sov are OP like hell.

In team games spam is op as hell.
And any faction can spam.

I'm gonna ignore most of the scrubs posting in the thread and focus on the baseline of giaa's arguement.

Soviet lategame is utterly retarded. Honestly it borders on absurd, yes the early game sucks ass, and youll have plenty of games where it closes out quickly (because automatch is ahit, but thats another talk altogether), the faction imo is reliant on maps that have tons of resources and frequently go to lategame. (Think crossroada,nexus and langres).

The main issue just comes down to a plethora of absurd shit.

1: 7men cons are once vetted up to 3. The best infantry in the entire game, with flares,sandbags to neuter any other mainline barring maybe 5 man grens who are equally retarded. This means once you pasa a certain threshold you enter a stage where your infantry may as weöl not exist. Volks bleed and even if they win fights the end up trading unequally. Their upgrades are straight up inferior (svts for example across the board have better dps than stgs)

2: t70 is ridicolous, the only saving grace is that sov early game is cucked and flamer HT forces zis, otherwise the matchup would almost be unplayabe with how stupid it gets.

3: the premium tanks. 85s are better than p4 in every single way, kv1s practically require panthers to cope, ans the fact that they deploy fleets of tanka with 5 shot hp qith the ability to self repair will inevitably lose you the lategame repair war.

Id add more but im phoneposting

Soviets are OP (But only in the mid-lategame)

I'm gonna ignore most of the scrubs posting in the thread and focus on the baseline of giaa's arguement.

Soviet lategame is utterly retarded. Honestly it borders on absurd, yes the early game sucks ass, and youll have plenty of games where it closes out quickly (because automatch is ahit, but thats another talk altogether), the faction imo is reliant on maps that have tons of resources and frequently go to lategame. (Think crossroada,nexus and langres).

The main issue just comes down to a plethora of absurd shit.

1: 7men cons are once vetted up to 3. The best infantry in the entire game, with flares,sandbags to neuter any other mainline barring maybe 5 man grens who are equally retarded. This means once you pasa a certain threshold you enter a stage where your infantry may as weöl not exist. Volks bleed and even if they win fights the end up trading unequally. Their upgrades are straight up inferior (svts for example across the board have better dps than stgs)

2: t70 is ridicolous, the only saving grace is that sov early game is cucked and flamer HT forces zis, otherwise the matchup would almost be unplayabe with how stupid it gets.

3: the premium tanks. 85s are better than p4 in every single way, kv1s practically require panthers to cope, ans the fact that they deploy fleets of tanka with 5 shot hp qith the ability to self repair will inevitably lose you the lategame repair war.

Id add more but im phoneposting

Soviets are OP (But only in the mid-lategame)

So Soviets are OP as long as you ignore their weaknesses and focus only on their strengths. Well at least you are aligned with GiA on that one.

So Soviets are OP as long as you ignore their weaknesses and focus only on their strengths. Well at least you are aligned with GiA on that one.

Jesus christ of all things to take away from my overall point thats what you took?
Lol

The """"weakness"""" is the rng of automatch and a 15 min gamble of your opponent to end the game. If they dont win the early the games goes from "i have advantage" to "How the fuck do i keep up with his superior artillery,sight infantry and tanks."

Hell id go so far as to say. One single t3485 or kv1 is worth two p4s in terms of sheer value and potenial.

Like this """weakness""" will go away the moment ostruppen are nerfed.

And another thing. Just surviving 15 min literally paves the path to advantage arguably greater than the early game advantaged grantes by ostruppen.

The """"weakness""" at worst is situtional. I've had countless matches on langres,nexus,crossroads where i can easily hold one side and alowly push my opponent out.

Though i dont even know why you're weighing in when you play fuck all 1v1s lol.