Why Soviets are OP

Penals should be just cheaper, while some of their AI should be locked behind free upgrade.

Because while they are very powerfull, overall presence on the field suffers badly in 1v1, while in teamgames, they perform much better, since teammate can carry you a bit early and in retern you provide almost rolf-stomp inf.

Point is being, I would rather see them with 2 mosins\3 SVTs while cost being droped to 270\280 MP, with T3 providing free additional SVTs for all non-PTRS squads. Maybe even grenades for non-PTRS squads aswell.

But honestly there are a lot of possabilities how to make soviet tech better. Like molies and AT should be one upgrade. Cons 7-men grade should be for sure spleet up between T3 and T4. With T3 unlocking upgrade and providing 7 men, T4 upping this grade and providing buffs or vise versa.

Honestly a lot of soviet changes, sometimes feels like they were made as a bandage, without looking at whole faction and rather looking at specific lacklaster units and patching them instead of how faction works.

So you want much weaker SVT conscripts for much higher cost and arriving later?
How is that going to help with anything?

You would butcher units only strength and they would get literally nothing in return, because you are still completely incapable of fielding more of them in the early game, so what you're basically saying is killing the unit.

From my mostly 2v2 perspective, i want to add my 2 cents into this topic. Mainly, I agree with CreativeName. Soviets are very strong faction with a lot of stuff that being too powerfull in certain situations (sometimes depends on a map, sometimes on your army composition, something combine with your teammate, something all at once).

What i would like to see being changed:

Buffs:
- Katiusha needs it vet1 ability changed into more stuka fire that or doesn't share cooldown (but with ammo cost) or ammo cost highly reduced.
- better variation for soviet to start the game (example: higher starting MP (by 30 mp) but cons costs 250 mp). therefore it's more efficient to go 1 cons into t1 or in maxims coping ostheer way of playing than just simply spam 1 unit.
- HT can heal units inside - units cannot fire while in HT,
- SU-76 - better rotation,


Nerfs:
- T70 - increase vet requirement, increase nonfire cooldown between spotting mode/fire mode, reduce speed movement while in recon mode, reduce penetration that it cannot easily win vs p2,
- Revamp ISU-152 commanders - it cannot be that commander has elite infantry, heavy tank and late game off map. Commander itself counters every counter - brainless. My idea is to replace late game IL-bombing run with 0 CP ability, like: light "s" mine and smoke nades/barrage. Those changes should be implemented with removal of stuka dive bomb in jeager armor. Those combo is definatly too strong in maps like Minsk/Rails. It's really boring to see it almost every game on those maps.
- All nonsoviet teamweapons can be crew by numer of soldier that ally to the faction weapon belongs, for example rakketen 5 men, pak40 - 4 men, 50cal - 4 men. Currently when soviets steal a teamweapon it's almost impossible to get it back becouse of 6 men squad - especially when it crew by shock troops.
- Combat Engineers - increase cost to 200 mp like other counterparts.

- All nonsoviet teamweapons can be crew by numer of soldier that ally to the faction weapon belongs, for example rakketen 5 men, pak40 - 4 men, 50cal - 4 men. Currently when soviets steal a teamweapon it's almost impossible to get it back becouse of 6 men squad - especially when it crew by shock troops.

+1
I have pointed that out year ago.

- All nonsoviet teamweapons can be crew by numer of soldier that ally to the faction weapon belongs, for example rakketen 5 men, pak40 - 4 men, 50cal - 4 men. Currently when soviets steal a teamweapon it's almost impossible to get it back becouse of 6 men squad - especially when it crew by shock troops.

Yes, the ability of Falls/Obers/Pgrens and Conscripts to decrew teamweapons are exactly the same.

The crew size goes both ways. On one hand it's harder to decrew, on other, more manpower to reinforce. Furthermore, as Storm pointed out, soviets have a harder time clearing team weapons with stock infantry whereas stock elite squads of OKW and OST don't really. Even more so with the low fuse flame on volks and granade launcher on grens.

Again, you win some, you lose some. Right now soviets have a ton of manpower bleed and larger albeit bit weaker squads.

snip

The changes are almost fine for teamgames but you just killed the faction on 1v1.

-The Katyusha vet 1 is actually bugged (IIRC) so you need to either fix it first or actually discard the ability all together.
-The net +30 initial mp is offset by the double mp nerfs. Either you get 3/4 Conscripts which is a net -10mp nerf (and messing on all other stats values cause now they get a discrepancy between cost and reinforce/vet value) or any tiered opening which requires a 2nd CE which the cost increase also upsets.
Unless you plan to adjust the mp cost of both T1 and T2 to be equal to OH, so you get +80mp, the so called buff is not more than a plain nerf.
-The 200mp CE nerf could be fine if you give it an equivalent buff on utility and DPS as Pios received. Cause i don't think they are as good as RET (been able to equip weapons + vet) or Pios at that cost.
I think you could give them reinforce cost of 40% which would put them at 20mp per model (equal to Cons) if you were to apply that change.


The other changes are fine, but i would nerf the T70 a bit more and make all T3 comes way sooner. Adjust the mp economy on tech and upgrades and push any necessary difference towards T4.

- All nonsoviet teamweapons can be crew by numer of soldier that ally to the faction weapon belongs, for example rakketen 5 men, pak40 - 4 men, 50cal - 4 men. Currently when soviets steal a teamweapon it's almost impossible to get it back becouse of 6 men squad - especially when it crew by shock troops.

This is one of the things that makes Soviets unique. So I'd have to say no to this.

So you want much weaker SVT conscripts for much higher cost and arriving later?
How is that going to help with anything?

You would butcher units only strength and they would get literally nothing in return, because you are still completely incapable of fielding more of them in the early game, so what you're basically saying is killing the unit.

And you want much stronger squad which arrives later and sacrificing early game map countrol, while giving nothing in return in mid game.

Penals are too strong for early game to cost less. I would rather see them weaker early and be cheaper while being stronger in mid\late game. At least T1 would be more reliable and penals more affordable.

And you want much stronger squad which arrives later and sacrificing early game map countrol, while giving nothing in return in mid game.

Penals are too strong for early game to cost less. I would rather see them weaker early and be cheaper while being stronger in mid\late game. At least T1 would be more reliable and penals more affordable.

Yes, if Penals contiue with their current role they should follow the current P.F. design starting weaker and having weapon upgrade available to them.

I too would rather penals follow the fussies design. A 300mp squad behind a 160mp tech is just nuclear on your map control

I wouldn't mind penals following PF design. I do think penals vet should be adjusted to be the same as PF.

'To the last man' I think adds 3% accuracy to the squad per modal loss. This dosnt really do much as they drop like flies. Could be improved.

Checked 'to the last man', 4% accuracy, 2% cool-down and -3% received accuracy per modal lost. Still my opinion about it stands.

I wouldn't mind penals following PF design. I do think penals vet should be adjusted to be the same as PF.

'To the last man' I think adds 3% accuracy to the squad per modal loss. This dosnt really do much as they drop like flies. Could be improved.

Checked 'to the last man', 4% accuracy, 2% cool-down and -3% received accuracy per modal lost. Still my opinion about it stands.

Actually PF and Penal veterancy is quite close up to vet 3

To the last man is great for prolonged fight from heavy to heavy cover contrary to what one might think originally.

Since Penal get great offensive vet bonuses one has to change the way one uses them and move them to cover later in the game.

To the last man is great for prolonged fight from heavy to heavy cover contrary to what one might think originally.

Since Penal get great offensive vet bonuses one has to change the way one uses them and move them to cover later in the game.

Or you can just use 7 man cons, which also are good for prolonged fight and more then make up for lower long range dps with incomparably higher staying power without the need to constantly hump green cover or explode instantly in late gam.e

Good offensive vet does not compensate for lack of late game weapon upgrade(which already was proven by conscripts) or meme worthy staying power and lowest rec acc bonus in game.

Actually PF and Penal veterancy is quite close up to vet 3

To the last man is great for prolonged fight from heavy to heavy cover contrary to what one might think originally.

Since Penal get great offensive vet bonuses one has to change the way one uses them and move them to cover later in the game.

Im aware of their accuracy vet but I wouldnd mind to trade some of that for more staying power.

They have THE highest received accuracy at vet 3 of any core,semi and elite infantry in the game gaining a measly 15% through vet.

I like to add, if they do trade accuracy vet for received accuracy (like PF vet), to the last man then can be more targeted to increasing their accuracy as they loose modals. Just a thought.

Im aware of their accuracy vet but I wouldnd mind to trade some of that for more staying power.

They have THE highest received accuracy at vet 3 of any core,semi and elite infantry in the game gaining a measly 15% through vet.

I like to add, if they do trade accuracy vet for received accuracy (like PF vet), to the last man then can be more targeted to increasing their accuracy as they loose modals. Just a thought.

When calculating their received accuracy one has to take into account the bonuses from to the last man...
When they are down to 4 models their received accuracy improve to 6%.

In addition their Target size might not be great but their effective HP is not that bad compared to other unit.

Penal are badly designed but I would rather see an overhaul than just another bandaid of giving them target size bonus.

And you want much stronger squad which arrives later and sacrificing early game map countrol, while giving nothing in return in mid game.

Penals are too strong for early game to cost less. I would rather see them weaker early and be cheaper while being stronger in mid\late game. At least T1 would be more reliable and penals more affordable.

They aren't when you have to put 160mp into tech to get them out.

Which is why, while similar, they are not equivalent to PF. PF design does a much better job overall. Both in utility, smooth scaling, AI and AT. It doesn't mean stronger, but it doesn't feel bad using or facing them.

There's also the fact that getting PF doesn't mean you lock out of getting access to an MG and an AT gun.

If Penals are "problematic" it's only because the tier is composed of them plus a sniper and a clowncar unit.

They aren't when you have to put 160mp into tech to get them out.

Which is why, while similar, they are not equivalent to PF. PF design does a much better job overall. Both in utility, smooth scaling, AI and AT. It doesn't mean stronger, but it doesn't feel bad using or facing them.

There's also the fact that getting PF doesn't mean you lock out of getting access to an MG and an AT gun.

If Penals are "problematic" it's only because the tier is composed of them plus a sniper and a clowncar unit.

Imo that is misconception because when it comes to Soviet we went from commander depended reliance with 2 building and doctrinal units filling the gaps, to a non commander design with 3 buildings while keeping the plethora of doctrinal units and the power level of those doctrinal units and in that design some unit are simply redundant.

From my mostly 2v2 perspective, i want to add my 2 cents into this topic. Mainly, I agree with CreativeName. Soviets are very strong faction with a lot of stuff that being too powerfull in certain situations (sometimes depends on a map, sometimes on your army composition, something combine with your teammate, something all at once).

What i would like to see being changed:

Buffs:
- Katiusha needs it vet1 ability changed into more stuka fire that or doesn't share cooldown (but with ammo cost) or ammo cost highly reduced.
- better variation for soviet to start the game (example: higher starting MP (by 30 mp) but cons costs 250 mp). therefore it's more efficient to go 1 cons into t1 or in maxims coping ostheer way of playing than just simply spam 1 unit.
- HT can heal units inside - units cannot fire while in HT,
- SU-76 - better rotation,


Nerfs:
- T70 - increase vet requirement, increase nonfire cooldown between spotting mode/fire mode, reduce speed movement while in recon mode, reduce penetration that it cannot easily win vs p2,
- Revamp ISU-152 commanders - it cannot be that commander has elite infantry, heavy tank and late game off map. Commander itself counters every counter - brainless. My idea is to replace late game IL-bombing run with 0 CP ability, like: light "s" mine and smoke nades/barrage. Those changes should be implemented with removal of stuka dive bomb in jeager armor. Those combo is definatly too strong in maps like Minsk/Rails. It's really boring to see it almost every game on those maps.
- All nonsoviet teamweapons can be crew by numer of soldier that ally to the faction weapon belongs, for example rakketen 5 men, pak40 - 4 men, 50cal - 4 men. Currently when soviets steal a teamweapon it's almost impossible to get it back becouse of 6 men squad - especially when it crew by shock troops.
- Combat Engineers - increase cost to 200 mp like other counterparts.

All sensible +1