How Coh2 sold out - and what to do about it

The more experience you have with something, the more hour sunk into studying and participating in it the more you can see its flaws.

The exact opposite of this applies when something has incredible depth and detail.

With vCOH this process took years.

Sure people complained about the kangaroo, the balance between PE and Brits vs Wher and Us and yet, there was still some epic 2v2 games played with all factions and to this day it remains the best RTS ever created.

To this day every good game will have something different.

When I fired up coh2 for the first time within seconds I already spotted problems.

I think this statement from Tommy sums it up perfectly ( in case you were wondering he is a shoutcaster who has watched more games of vcoh, coh2 then just about anyone as well as being a top teir vcoh player. So his skills and his love for the game can not be questioned)

Tommy: Although true in the case of many RTS games, it doesn't have to be the case. Take chess, for example. Or vCoH, for that matter. Games can continue to remain fresh and interesting as long as they have sufficient depth (by which I mean, a great number of strategic choices where no single unit/build order/tactic is objectively superior to any other in a vacuum). It is a sign that a game lacks depth when additional units are required to keep it fresh- that game is substituting depth for sheer mass.

Balance Is Not The Biggest Issue

The real issue with Coh2 doesn’t lie in the “balance” of the game or even with the completely retarded 5 billion DLC.

In my opinion the real problems lie with the hidden game mechanics and the physics behind the game engine.

Now before you call me a moron hear me out - I apologize about the lenght

The game is inferior to vcoh in nearly all levels of quality and detail. It shipped out with cartoon engine, lackluster physics and none of the attention to detail that was prevalent in the original.

I can still remember seeing a mg42 literally shoot off the windscreen off a jeep, see a perfect shot from the Hummel ( which I timed and predicted masterfully hit 2 clumped up vet 3 AB squads and showered the terrain with their body parts) or even seen a jeep get hit made out of control, and then run into an enemy mine ... while the enemy was near wiping his squad.

Stuff like this cannot be scripted, or even predicted - its the workings of a brilliantly made engine with incredible physics and a great mechanics underneath.

Its been 8 years since and vcoh has barely aged.

Issues like lag and units not firing on retreat are being looked into but it does not mitigate the fact that coh2 was an inferior product in every way but the graphics.

The campaign for example was like a bad joke when compared to the tact and story telling of the first game.. but onto the real problems.

Now I’m not some guy that gets impressed by pretty graphic unless they add something to the game. In my opinion although coh2 has better and more detailed graphics but they are considerably less effective than in vCOH to the point where they are ruining the game. I’ll explain

• There is a huge discrepancy between what a weapon effect looks like on screen and the physical effects it has on the environment and squads/units – prime example railway arty.. if that shell hit anything its dead in real life, it would be vaporised, and ripped to shreds, with pieces flying everywhere, in coh 2 its explosion is huge but the damage is not that big, and bodies drop straight to the ground – not in pieces but full bodies.

• Lets compare a 105mm arty strike to the rail way arty in coh2 – which one looks more powerful and which effects enhance the game?

Now it’s easy to see that coh2 has better graphics but in the end it ends up being outclassed by its 8 year old predecessor.

• Check out 1:40 of this video ( it game editing tool which allows crazy arty spam) and notice how destructible even the ground was in coh start at 1 minute. The volume of arty simply craters the ground in a massive way which gives green cover ( and totally kicks ass) nothing like this is possible in coh2. Mostly the ground just gets blackened but there’s very limited effect on the ground

If you think im being a bit stupid here then read on - In the latest Frontline Network shoutcast Tommy was discussing how goliath and PE boobytrap craters were the only ones in the game that gave 360 degree green cover and how he use to use that to his advantage to make his riflemen beat superior opposition.

Name another game where the after effects of an explosion n cause the terrain to change and actually create the opportunities for new strategies.

You know something was done right there.

• In vcoh call ins like that did exactly what they looked like it did, v1 flattened everything, 280mm rocket strike could be a game ender, 105mm art barrage did massive damage in the small confines of the call in. Check out 43 seconds and 2:03 for V 1 strike (27:27) for 105mm

• If a tank shot a man the man would explode and those pieces would then be move by the shot and react with the environment and the kinetic energy from the damage would in a realistic ( if someone what over the top manner) move the body/ parts and they would react with the environment.

• Tiger vs inf damage and physics at 3:18 <while in coh 2 seems like physics have no effect ( tiger vs pio) 3:30

• Example of random but beautiful physics 42:09

• This had a profound effect on the game as it meant you knew what to expect from the muniton type, effected the physical environment in a way that is never seen in a game again.
They obviously have physics in the game but they need to apply it to a wider range of actions not just 30% of goings on (33:30)

• 
  ]Mortars are great example of this – in vcoh if a mortar landed on your guys, the guys in the AOE were dead, end of story, nothing to argue about or even debate. Exactly the way it should be – now i see a shot going off in the middle of a squad and the effect ranges from nothing to squad wipe, its so random there is a huge congruency problem between what you see/how it is represented, what you think will happen and what actually does happen.
  
  

• 
  In vCOH it felt like every single unit/building/ piece of debris was governed by an advanced physics engine and all objects with the game world all effected by the physical confines of that world
  
  

• 
  They way weapon effects were displayed in vcoh is vastly superior to coh2. Since when did tanks shoot balls of glowing material that exploded like something out of a bad hollywood movie? When did arty shells have a fuel-air mix that makes a fireball happen? Watch arty explode in vcoh, the amount of destructive force it unleashes is a thing of beauty, and when it connects with a squad... oh my, such carnage- limbs where sent sky high in all directions, any squad that got hit directly was vaporized and thrown half the map away, huge fountains of dirt exploded viciously out of the ground. Now when arty connects a man is lying on on the ground or crawling.. that’s it.
  

Don’t get me started with the game mechanics ( cover unit movement) how suppression worked ( not just from mgs but from other things that would cause suppression like explosions, other mg weapons)

How AT guns worked - how awesome penetrating hits and glancing blows looked and felt. The better mechanics of stickies and fausts.

The incredible detail of damage tables ( or seeing a tread being blow off on a mobility kill)


In summary this is what vCOH does to COH 2


So now I have had my say and if you are sick of being taken for a joke - send this to relic. Comment, post on it and generally show them this is what you want is what is mean to be a "successor" to COH.

Would making changes like this take time and effort?

Absolutely but they have got my purchase as well as all of yours, and many have bought their DLCs ( and would continue to ) if the game gets fixed.

ATTENTION TO DETAIL SPEAKS VOLUMES AND WORD OF MOUTH IS THE BEST FORM OF ADVERTISING - REMEMBER THAT

On an embarassing side note.. anyone know how to actually embed videos so u guys can see what im talking about?

Brilliant, brilliant post.

It pretty much sums up what most are thinking about VCOH and COH2.

Yet, we're just powerless to do anything, except maybe boycott COH2 while their DLC P2W model is still around. I did this for 3 wks.

Brilliant, brilliant post.

It pretty much sums up what most are thinking about VCOH and COH2.

Yet, we're just powerless to do anything, except maybe boycott COH2 while their DLC P2W model is still around. I did this for 3 wks.

Thanks man I took me ages to come up with. There is stuff we can do, I mean relic wants the game to be a success and if they start fixing it up it will be, more sales, more happy customers win win.

They need know know that is what the fans actually think not just that they can keep releasing DLCs that take them a few days to make and milk the name for what its worth.

I disagree. In my opinion Coh2 particle effects and sound effects outclass vCoh. The atmosphere is more war-like to me. Besides, there are body parts flying around all the time in Coh2, you can also roll trees with tanks now. Snow tracks and mud effects are beautiful. Buildings still have same damage system as before, maybe even better.

Sure maybe you could adjust the force on shell impact to make the ragdolls fly in a more realistic way.

Weapons shooting glowing fireballs. There were tracers and smoke trails on vCoh aswell. They only added them back to Coh2 during the beta because people were demanding them. Not for realism but to make it more clear what's happening on the battlefield.

here is how you would embed one of your videos as an example.



click reply to see how its done.

oops. double post

here is how you would embed one of your videos as an example.



click reply to see how its done.

Thanks man ill go back and do that

Ultimately, things like good graphics and sound is great (COH1 had pretty good graphics, even now)

But the thing that matters the most in strategy games is Gameplay. This is the thing that determines whether ppl still play those games or not.

Probably that's why the strategy genre has been dying, too many ppl caring about bling and not about solid gameplay.

Ultimately, things like good graphics and sound is great (COH1 had pretty good graphics, even now)

But the thing that matters the most in strategy games is Gameplay. This is the thing that determines whether ppl still play those games or not.

Probably that's why the strategy genre has been dying, too many ppl caring about bling and not about solid gameplay.

But this topic isn't much about the gameplay is it? Only gameplay related thing I see is cover of craters and mortars.

Hey man, interesting post. I did want to say that I agree with you regarding the cosmetics and atmosphere of coh2.

But I'm going to criticize you for a moment. First off, the title is misleading and sounds a bit more like something that's going to be gunning for the pay2win model. Secondly, you have to consider that the game was being developed under a company that was falling apart (THQ). You have to consider that relic may have been in a situation where they didn't have the time to add that level of detail. It's a bit disappointing, but to say that the game is completely inferior in terms of visuals is an over exaggeration. There are some things that look great, I mean did you even consider the fact that they went out and recorded a lot of the weapon sounds for the real weapons to improve the gunfire sound effects?

Lastly, just because you bought the game and didn't enjoy the art style doesn't mean they think you're a "joke". This isn't logical whatsoever. You bought the game, they made it a certain way, they aren't all sitting in a wooden cabin sipping french wines laughing their ass off at your purchase or something. In the end, I think it comes down to personal preference. Because I played vcoh for nearly 6 years I prefer the visuals and atmosphere of vcoh. However the coh2 visuals and gameplay have grown on me a bit. IF I could somehow get vcoh visuals, yea, I'd probably take those (I really miss the awe of large artillery strikes and the feeling of epicness that was more common in the games).

Also, that was an epic goliath kill lol.

I have to agree with most of the OP points, though I really dont see them ever fixing all this. I think vCOH was special because it seemed like it was made by people who really wanted to make that game, and had a lot of great visions for how to make the best possible ww2 RTS. COH2, on the other hand, feels like a game made by someone not really that into vCOH, who were forced to rush out a sequel to save the company, changing a lot of the fundamental gameplayelements in the process in order to be able to milk the product more and make it more accesible, while simplifying the development process.

But this topic isn't much about the gameplay is it? Only gameplay related thing I see is cover of craters and mortars.

Well it is.. since the lethality of things like arty was done so well - one 105mm on map could wipe half a soviet army in coh2, because of the way the game is played so static.
In coh2 even the railway arty which is crazy 2 times the size of 1 shot of 105 does nothing in comparison.

Gameplay is completely under the control of the game engine, which is governed by the physic and internal aspects.

Im calling for the game engine to bring back the complexity of coh therefore completely adding how you can play the game and the depth of strategy.

I have to agree with most of the OP points, though I really dont see them ever fixing all this. I think vCOH was special because it seemed like it was made by people who really wanted to make that game, and had a lot of great visions for how to make the best possible ww2 RTS. COH2, on the other hand, feels like a game made by someone not really that into vCOH, who were forced to rush out a sequel to save the company, changing a lot of the fundamental gameplayelements in the process in order to be able to milk the product more and make it more accesible, while simplifying the development process.

That was well said, although few games have a community like this so I think with all the sales now made, and dlcs coming out they can turn back to the game and start making improvements and adding depth, as well as new content as they wish.

Hey man, interesting post. I did want to say that I agree with you regarding the cosmetics and atmosphere of coh2.

But I'm going to criticize you for a moment. First off, the title is misleading and sounds a bit more like something that's going to be gunning for the pay2win model. Secondly, you have to consider that the game was being developed under a company that was falling apart (THQ). You have to consider that relic may have been in a situation where they didn't have the time to add that level of detail. It's a bit disappointing, but to say that the game is completely inferior in terms of visuals is an over exaggeration. There are some things that look great, I mean did you even consider the fact that they went out and recorded a lot of the weapon sounds for the real weapons to improve the gunfire sound effects?

Lastly, just because you bought the game and didn't enjoy the art style doesn't mean they think you're a "joke". This isn't logical whatsoever. You bought the game, they made it a certain way, they aren't all sitting in a wooden cabin sipping french wines laughing their ass off at your purchase or something. In the end, I think it comes down to personal preference. Because I played vcoh for nearly 6 years I prefer the visuals and atmosphere of vcoh. However the coh2 visuals and gameplay have grown on me a bit. IF I could somehow get vcoh visuals, yea, I'd probably take those (I really miss the awe of large artillery strikes and the feeling of epicness that was more common in the games).

Also, that was an epic goliath kill lol.

Thanks for the reply. TO me the game is about the effects and by that I mean effects in game - what 1 arty shell can do to a squad, or a building or the ground or a bridge ect ect.

Not really about "graphics" ie what it all looks like ( even though COH looked amazing) as I say COH2 actually has better graphics but its just all for show, none of the stuff that made coh well COH is there anymore, its oversimplified and its not as good.

Time to start adding in the depth..

I miss craters!! Totally changed the battlefield. Remember what Semois would look like after a 1 hour long battle. The town was completely flattened and cratered.. In CoH2?... eh

TLDR: Improve Artillery Physics

I'm not sure what that has to do with selling out exactly. Maybe they could not port the code or tried a different design direction.

TLDR: Improve Artillery Physics

I'm not sure what that has to do with selling out exactly. Maybe they could not port the code or tried a different design direction.

Great comprehension....

What it has to do with selling out is giving a shell of what a COH game is about - and that was about incredible detail, lethality, destructibility and huge depth of strategy.

On the surface coh2 looks like its the same game until you bother to pay attention and see its a poor mans copy at the very best and a sad parody at worst.

I disagree that the biggest issue of CoH2 right now is the lack of jeep drivers flying hundreds of meters in the air after an explosion.

I disagree that the biggest issue of CoH2 right now is the lack of jeep drivers flying hundreds of meters in the air after an explosion.

Well what do you think caused such things to happen? It wasn't pre scripted was it?

No so it was actually an incredible game engine, combined with incredible physics which made the game a joy to play. The whole game mechanics were underpinned by a masterfully created game environment where "what you see on scree is whats happening" type of game play where a mortar hit caused deaths, a grenade did damage that seemed appropriate and your units did what you told them WHEN you told them.

It also made it possible for units to do different damage at different ranges, at guns to take out tanks faster by hitting them on side and rear armour ( and causing engine damage) for infantry to be able to fight and have decisive wins in seconds.

Its what made COH a amazing game and COH2 which is meant to be superior into a 2 dimensional copy where one has to rely on the "secondary attack" spam function like Red Alert 2 or something