Can we plz "fix" the CalliOPe?
21 Sep 2020, 05:59 AM
#21
Posts: 563
I mean if its strength is supposed to be surivability, you could reduce its range to scott barrage level so you have to suspect calliope to more dangers while using it.
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21 Sep 2020, 10:02 AM
#22
Posts: 1515
In the original thread, Achpawel wrote:
And I think that should do the trick. Also it should be 100% at all ranges from P4.
Having read all that imo its SPEED may be the answer to all problems.
It could be done in a few ways but the concept would be to make it the most heavily armoured but also the slowest among rocket arty units.
If calliope was, for example, 50% slower it could make it more vulnerable to AT stuff and would allow it to retain its armour. Some other ideas of slowing it down could be used (70% speed penalty after the barrage for 15 seconds, etc).
What do U guys think?
And I think that should do the trick. Also it should be 100% at all ranges from P4.
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21 Sep 2020, 11:18 AM
#23
Posts: 88
In the original thread, Achpawel wrote:
And I think that should do the trick. Also it should be 100% at all ranges from P4.
Nerfing its fire rate is the first real step towards balancing it.
Having your infantry wiped from the first volley is not fun.
21 Sep 2020, 14:12 PM
#24
Posts: 5279
The problem with requiring it to use munitions is when you don't have them, you have a fat ass tank sitting around doing absolutely nothing but occupying popcap and taxing manpower income. I'm against units that require resources to use for that reason.
That's why I'd have its main gun functional so it's not dead weight. Basically I'd have it act like Tulips but an AI barrage instead.
Yoi get so many more ways to tweak then and ensure that it's powerlevel and cost effectiveness is where it's wanted.
#stalinwept
21 Sep 2020, 14:15 PM
#25
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
That's why I'd have its main gun functional so it's not dead weight. Basically I'd have it act like Tulips but an AI barrage instead.
That's impossible sadly, there are no firing animations for the gun.
21 Sep 2020, 14:33 PM
#26
Posts: 5279
That's impossible sadly, there are no firing animations for the gun.
Well that does suck. No way to Frankenstein the existing Sherman animation into it? Maybe lock the turret if that makes it easier?
If not there's other avenues, like free smoke pots say, something that makes it more than a durable Katy to justify its cost
#stalinwept
21 Sep 2020, 14:40 PM
#27
Posts: 817 | Subs: 5
That's impossible sadly, there are no firing animations for the gun.
It is possible though
I implemented it in the my mod.
21 Sep 2020, 14:59 PM
#28
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
It is possible though
I implemented it in the my mod.
Ah, I was told the opposite by other modders once.
21 Sep 2020, 18:14 PM
#29
Posts: 4928
It'd be cool if unlocking the gun was an upgrade that limited the calliope's range. The T34 launcher disabled the 75mm gun but tank crews would field modify the installation to support firing the 75mm gun, at the cost of limiting the traverse of the gun and launcher.
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21 Sep 2020, 18:26 PM
#30
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
That's why I'd have its main gun functional so it's not dead weight. Basically I'd have it act like Tulips but an AI barrage instead.
Yoi get so many more ways to tweak then and ensure that it's powerlevel and cost effectiveness is where it's wanted.
I know realism isn't supposed to matter but it in this case it would bother me if they did that. The Sherman's main gun was pretty much useless when the launcher was mounted. There's stories of guys modifying it in the field to work, but the gun was always much less effective
I think using realism to say X should beat Y is dumb, but when it comes to whether or not something was even possible, I wish Relic cared a little more about realism
21 Sep 2020, 19:42 PM
#31
Posts: 5279
I know realism isn't supposed to matter but it in this case it would bother me if they did that. The Sherman's main gun was pretty much useless when the launcher was mounted. There's stories of guys modifying it in the field to work, but the gun was always much less effective
I think using realism to say X should beat Y is dumb, but when it comes to whether or not something was even possible, I wish Relic cared a little more about realism
It can still be made basically useless but still there. Less effective but there would be easier to balance than all in on durability give it low traverse speed and rof but something is better than nothing.
Hell even JUST a smoke shell would be better than nothing. Spread out its utility because a 140fuel rocket arty damn well needs to be good some how and if anything above a 2cm is going to pen it and kill it in 2 shots it better nuke everything in its barrage area-but that's not feasible by any means...
Its kinda like the isu balancing to me. People bitch and moan about the AP shells but it keeps the cost up and the AI down because it has more to flesh out the cost than just AI. if the calliope can bring more than JUST the barrage then it is easier to justify its cost. There are many metrics that CAN be applied if we widen the scope beyond its durability, barrage power and its price because the odds of all 3 being balanced and attractive are slim.
#stalinwept
21 Sep 2020, 19:53 PM
#32
Posts: 808
It can still be made basically useless but still there. Less effective but there would be easier to balance than all in on durability give it low traverse speed and rof but something is better than nothing.
Hell even JUST a smoke shell would be better than nothing. Spread out its utility because a 140fuel rocket arty damn well needs to be good some how and if anything above a 2cm is going to pen it and kill it in 2 shots it better nuke everything in its barrage area-but that's not feasible by any means...
Its kinda like the isu balancing to me. People bitch and moan about the AP shells but it keeps the cost up and the AI down because it has more to flesh out the cost than just AI. if the calliope can bring more than JUST the barrage then it is easier to justify its cost. There are many metrics that CAN be applied if we widen the scope beyond its durability, barrage power and its price because the odds of all 3 being balanced and attractive are slim.
or one can just nerf it and make it non doc and finally give USF non doc arty. This will also mean, OP units like the pak howie can be adjusted again.
21 Sep 2020, 20:02 PM
#33
Posts: 219
i feel the real problem lies with the commander ''urban assault thingamajig''
spamming rangers that are armed to the teeth with zooks, and pumping out 3-4 calliopes, that kills all minefields, mg-bunkers, emplacements and blobs.
calls to kill the inf. rangers to kill armour. perfect combo + the smoke call-in that speeds infantry up to laugh off the feeble attempts to stuka/werf the ranger-blob
spamming rangers that are armed to the teeth with zooks, and pumping out 3-4 calliopes, that kills all minefields, mg-bunkers, emplacements and blobs.
calls to kill the inf. rangers to kill armour. perfect combo + the smoke call-in that speeds infantry up to laugh off the feeble attempts to stuka/werf the ranger-blob
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21 Sep 2020, 20:34 PM
#34
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
It can still be made basically useless but still there. Less effective but there would be easier to balance than all in on durability give it low traverse speed and rof but something is better than nothing.
Hell even JUST a smoke shell would be better than nothing. Spread out its utility because a 140fuel rocket arty damn well needs to be good some how and if anything above a 2cm is going to pen it and kill it in 2 shots it better nuke everything in its barrage area-but that's not feasible by any means...
Yeah those could work. I just don't even know how true the stories are if it being modified. But with the factory design, the launcher is literally attached to the barrel of the main gun. So fire one single shot and the whole system is in trouble
Its kinda like the isu balancing to me. People bitch and moan about the AP shells but it keeps the cost up and the AI down because it has more to flesh out the cost than just AI. if the calliope can bring more than JUST the barrage then it is easier to justify its cost. There are many metrics that CAN be applied if we widen the scope beyond its durability, barrage power and its price because the odds of all 3 being balanced and attractive are slim.
Yeah the gameplay reasoning for your idea is perfect. It's honestly just me being a stickler. This game is like just on the edge of ignoring history too much imo, which is my only objection to this
24 Sep 2020, 17:18 PM
#35
Posts: 88
The easiest "fix" would be to limit this stupid thing to 1-2 per player and nerf its damn firing speed.
Seriously every damn game with USF I always see this kind of crap obliterating my infantry even when I hit the retreat button.
Remember when the Sturmtiger can shoot through shot blockers? This thing gives the same feeling as that, 10 times worse.
USF: best mainline, best TD, now best doctrinal artillery? God forbids me from having fun as Axis in team games.
Seriously every damn game with USF I always see this kind of crap obliterating my infantry even when I hit the retreat button.
Remember when the Sturmtiger can shoot through shot blockers? This thing gives the same feeling as that, 10 times worse.
USF: best mainline, best TD, now best doctrinal artillery? God forbids me from having fun as Axis in team games.
24 Sep 2020, 20:29 PM
#36
Posts: 1220
USF: best mainline, best TD, now best doctrinal artillery? God forbids me from having fun as Axis in team games.
Wow yes because doctrinal rocket arty kills teamgames
Just imagine evry faction need pick doctrine to get one, cure for cancer
Anyway just make elefant and win
25 Sep 2020, 02:19 AM
#37
Posts: 33
The easiest "fix" would be to limit this stupid thing to 1-2 per player and nerf its damn firing speed.
Seriously every damn game with USF I always see this kind of crap obliterating my infantry even when I hit the retreat button.
Remember when the Sturmtiger can shoot through shot blockers? This thing gives the same feeling as that, 10 times worse.
USF: best mainline, best TD, now best doctrinal artillery? God forbids me from having fun as Axis in team games.
Do you know why you see so much Caliope in team games? Because without it, lategame USF has nothing for team games. Jacksons are easy to counter with pak walls / Super heavy. and Pakhowi is useless against Axis Rocket arty. Brumbär shreds infantry. So... either you dominate earlygame or you have to go RangerZooks + Caliope.
25 Sep 2020, 05:40 AM
#38
Posts: 1158
Do you know why you see so much Caliope in team games? Because without it, lategame USF has nothing for team games. Jacksons are easy to counter with pak walls / Super heavy. and Pakhowi is useless against Axis Rocket arty. Brumbär shreds infantry. So... either you dominate earlygame or you have to go RangerZooks + Caliope.
This is what I don't understand about a lot of balance discussions here. You have axis with this crazy efficiency and no one bats an eye, but if USF(especially) has any decently efficient unit, it needs to be nerfed, then nerfed again. I've had instances of people in teamgames eliminating all or nearly all my infantry with a 2 (I think it was 2) PW salvo into retreat path/at base/ some rally/ etc. With how awesome axis AT options are, how does it make a difference that you have to have 3 shots on a caliope? It's not faster than panther. I know it's not bouncing panther shots. What in USF arsenal is going to trash a panther before it can get off 3 shots? 57mm bouncing tennis balls off the front? If I could send a sherman or jackson right in the front of a pakwall with the same chances as the panther to destroy a double health pw I wouldn't have a problem with pw having 2x health.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
25 Sep 2020, 10:04 AM
#39
Posts: 88
This is what I don't understand about a lot of balance discussions here. You have axis with this crazy efficiency and no one bats an eye, but if USF(especially) has any decently efficient unit, it needs to be nerfed, then nerfed again. I've had instances of people in teamgames eliminating all or nearly all my infantry with a 2 (I think it was 2) PW salvo into retreat path/at base/ some rally/ etc. With how awesome axis AT options are, how does it make a difference that you have to have 3 shots on a caliope? It's not faster than panther. I know it's not bouncing panther shots. What in USF arsenal is going to trash a panther before it can get off 3 shots? 57mm bouncing tennis balls off the front? If I could send a sherman or jackson right in the front of a pakwall with the same chances as the panther to destroy a double health pw I wouldn't have a problem with pw having 2x health.
Jacksons and Zook'ed Rangers, even AT guns (with its active ability).
I wouldn't risk losing my super expensive Panther over your Calliope like that since it has a slow ROF and bad accuracy on the move.
Meanwhile you can just suicide dive with some Shermans or T-34s and can take out all of our rocket artillery, since they die in 1 shot anyway and those mediums are cheap to replace.
25 Sep 2020, 10:11 AM
#40
Posts: 88
Do you know why you see so much Caliope in team games? Because without it, lategame USF has nothing for team games. Jacksons are easy to counter with pak walls / Super heavy. and Pakhowi is useless against Axis Rocket arty. Brumbär shreds infantry. So... either you dominate earlygame or you have to go RangerZooks + Caliope.
Then you win every time with that cancerous unit unless your teammates are dumb enough to let the enemy team rush you with massed Panthers.
As long as Calliope exists, there is no late game infantry for Axis.
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