durability of half-tracks
28 Aug 2020, 16:03 PM
#1
Posts: 219
i have noted that the OST 251 halftrack is more susceptable to small arms than its peers like the m5 and m3. Is this a balancing factor due to it can upgrade to the 251 ''flamer'' ?
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
28 Aug 2020, 16:09 PM
#2
Posts: 783
i have noted that the OST 251 halftrack is more susceptable to small arms than its peers like the m5 and m3. Is this a balancing factor due to it can upgrade to the 251 ''flamer'' ?
Partly but it has more to do with the timing it's available. The 251 hits the field several minutes before one could usually get an M5.
28 Aug 2020, 16:39 PM
#3
Posts: 219
that it arrives earlier than its peers is the main reason for it being vulnerable to small arms sounds like a lazy balancing, but understandable reason, but with the same cost as its peers.
any thoughts regarding this?
any thoughts regarding this?
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
28 Aug 2020, 16:49 PM
#4
Posts: 766 | Subs: 2
Honestly, I can not think of a time where small arms was used to take down the 251 from full health, or even after a snare. It is usually multiple snares and/or at guns. Buffing its armor or nerfing its counterparts probably would not change much.
28 Aug 2020, 17:08 PM
#5
Posts: 783
that it arrives earlier than its peers is the main reason for it being vulnerable to small arms sounds like a lazy balancing, but understandable reason, but with the same cost as its peers.
any thoughts regarding this?
It all comes down to timing. Because of how resources work, cost is basically another way to gate a unit behind a particular timing, and to introduce an element of opportunity cost.
Let's say that we felt the 251 needed to arrive earlier. We have a few options here. We could reduce the fuel cost of the 251 or reduce the fuel cost of battle phase 1 or reduce the fuel cost of the tier 2 structure. We can't change the fuel cost of Tier 2 because that'll make the 222 arrive earlier, and we can't reduce the cost of Battlephase 1 because that will make both the 222 and pgrens arrive earlier. We are left with changing the cost(or build time) of the unit.
28 Aug 2020, 17:08 PM
#6
Posts: 219
i sometimes load up grens or Pgrens into it, and dive in past mg's to deliver the cargo,(not 50cal's) where there are no one with snares, and the 251 takes a fair bit of dmg from mg's and inf. this is where its lack of armour is appearent compared to its peers, (ofc OST has MG with inc. ammo and grens with snares etc)
so what would happen if 251 was buffed or peers nerfed?
so what would happen if 251 was buffed or peers nerfed?
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
28 Aug 2020, 17:16 PM
#7
Posts: 783
i sometimes load up grens or Pgrens into it, and dive in past mg's to deliver the cargo,(not 50cal's) where there are no one with snares, and the 251 takes a fair bit of dmg from mg's and inf. this is where its lack of armour is appearent compared to its peers, (ofc OST has MG with inc. ammo and grens with snares etc)
so what would happen if 251 was buffed or peers nerfed?
Well despite the 251s relative vulnerability to small arms, I think it's in a fine place atm. It offers mobile reinforcement, healing(if you have the micro for it), and potentially very powerful Anti infantry if you are willing to expend the munitions for the upgrade.
Despite the m5 being better on paper, in practice the 251 is picked more often since soviets typically only build 1 vehicle out of tier 3 in order to maintain momentum and the T70 is far more powerful then the m5.
If anything the m5 could be slightly more expensive but then nobody would buy it ever.
28 Aug 2020, 17:52 PM
#8
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
that it arrives earlier than its peers is the main reason for it being vulnerable to small arms sounds like a lazy balancing
Every single unit's performance is tied to its timing, and for most cases this includes the level of durability. Similar units (like OST 222 and OKW 221) can have different levels of performance because one of them arrives earlier. It's the core of the game. How exactly is that "lazy balancing"?
28 Aug 2020, 17:55 PM
#9
Posts: 219
should (A) unit automatically be better than (B) unit because it comes out later?
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
28 Aug 2020, 18:12 PM
#10
Posts: 783
should (A) unit automatically be better than (B) unit because it comes out later?
More powerful? Yes. More cost effective? Not always.
28 Aug 2020, 19:21 PM
#11
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
should (A) unit automatically be better than (B) unit because it comes out later?
Units' performance is tied to timing, because timing is tied to the availability of appropriate and effective counters. That means that the earlier a vehicle comes out, the lower its durability is going to be. It's an easy concept.
The 251 arrives at a very early timing where the enemy might not have an ATG (on the front line) yet, likely has yet to tech/upgrade infantry AT, let alone have access to a counter light vehicle. The M5s come at a time where both Axis factions can have a light vehicle that can deal with it, should have ATGs on the field already and have long since had access to Panzerschrecks. Therefor, it's only logical that the 251 (and 222) is/are more vulnerable to small arms fire while M5 (as well as other light vehicles/tanks) are not.
28 Aug 2020, 22:28 PM
#12
Posts: 5279
that it arrives earlier than its peers is the main reason for it being vulnerable to small arms sounds like a lazy balancing, but understandable reason, but with the same cost as its peers.
any thoughts regarding this?
The t-70 is only slightly less expensive than the t34 despite a massive change in durability. Timing matters a lot.
#stalinwept
30 Aug 2020, 10:26 AM
#13
Posts: 1351
The t-70 is only slightly less expensive than the t34 despite a massive change in durability. Timing matters a lot.
Or teching cost, which is supposed to guarantee better units than the lower tech.
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30 Aug 2020, 13:15 PM
#14
Posts: 5279
Or teching cost, which is supposed to guarantee better units than the lower tech.
Tech costs are a form of time gating but both apply in the case of the 251/m5 matchup
#stalinwept
30 Aug 2020, 16:01 PM
#15
Posts: 1351
Tech costs are a form of time gating but both apply in the case of the 251/m5 matchup
I'd rather all halftracks had same resistance to small arms fire. Would be more logical.
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30 Aug 2020, 16:33 PM
#16
Posts: 498
I'd rather all halftracks had same resistance to small arms fire. Would be more logical.
One could add an armor upgrade to non flamer 251 at bp2 or 3, but considering that the 251 holds more utility than the M5 ht, more mobile and also has a greater sight range I don't see it as a big deal.
30 Aug 2020, 17:43 PM
#17
Posts: 5279
I'd rather all halftracks had same resistance to small arms fire. Would be more logical.
We're playing a game where it takes 4 direct hits with a 2cm auto cannon to kill a person and if they only take 3 they can run and climb and shoot fine. Balance takes priority. What's more, you have to try really hard to lose a 251 to small arms but it helps keep the FHT manageable
#stalinwept
30 Aug 2020, 17:44 PM
#18
Posts: 5279
One could add an armor upgrade to non flamer 251 at bp2 or 3, but considering that the 251 holds more utility than the M5 ht, more mobile and also has a greater sight range I don't see it as a big deal.
It also heals units inside it
#stalinwept
30 Aug 2020, 17:44 PM
#19
Posts: 1351
One could add an armor upgrade to non flamer 251 at bp2 or 3, but considering that the 251 holds more utility than the M5 ht, more mobile and also has a greater sight range I don't see it as a big deal.
It ain't a big deal - true. Just consistency - I'd rather nerf armour on the soviet clowncar as volks probably should be able to deal a tiny bit more damage to it.
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30 Aug 2020, 17:46 PM
#20
Posts: 1351
We're playing a game where it takes 4 direct hits with a 2cm auto cannon to kill a person and if they only take 3 they can run and climb and shoot fine. Balance takes priority. What's more, you have to try really hard to lose a 251 to small arms but it helps keep the FHT manageable
I'd say not really that difficult. You have to retreat it more often before it has as much impact as a clowncar with a flame CE. IMO it should be much better than a clowncar - right now it is not that significantly better.
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