possibilty to push back the late game td's

Believe that the rush to TD meta is getting old.

is it possible to make a tier 5? where all the late-game armour can be produced?

difficult to balance of course, but would like to see more variations, especially in SOV,OKW and USF mid-tier, so many things are predictable, by 20min mark all have su-85's,jacksons etc.

a lot of the fun is in the opening and mid-game, want to see more than just inf-spam and at some point a panther/jackson/su-85 shows up. make it so that some factions gets acess to more medium tanks stock, and that it would be somewhat punishing to those that skip several tiers to jump straight to the heavy-hitting stuff.

Not like the meta is spamming generalist mediums or anything.

do 1v1

You realize late-game TD's exist solely because Panthers are stock units and Tigers/Tiger II's are often used? Powerful Tank Destroyers only exist because powerful Tanks exist. We actually had a period where the SU-85 could not reliably penetrate a Panther or Tiger II, and it just meant larger gamemodes were inevitable Axis victories.

The only way to permanently fix this would be to tone down and possibly reduce the number of Axis heavy tanks in the late game. Introduce ways to counter them that don't involve high penetration vs high armor. Maybe reduce their health, increase penetration of light/medium tanks at close ranges, or increase damage of flanking shots vs heavy tanks. Even then it will still require Allies to take the initiative and possibly dive into enemy lines to get behind these vehicles.

You realize late-game TD's exist solely because Panthers are stock units and Tigers/Tiger II's are often used?

You do realize that Tigers and Panthers are often used because TDs are making mediums useless, because they almost always can penetrate and you almost always have to risk your tank rushing enemy TD in order to kill it.

Axis go for heavy\panthers because allies go always for TDs. Allies go always for TDs because axis go for heavy\panthers.

And its not like only problem with axis. All heavy tanks in general are very hard to destoy with any medium, even if you flank them and shoot rear armor.

Aside from AI all mediums are really lackluster in AT capabilities if they are not fighing other mediums. If its not doc.mediums ofcoase.

You do realize that Tigers and Panthers are often used because TDs are making mediums useless, because they almost always can penetrate and you almost always have to risk your tank rushing enemy TD in order to kill it.

Axis go for heavy\panthers because allies go always for TDs. Allies go always for TDs because axis go for heavy\panthers.

And its not like only problem with axis. All heavy tanks in general are very hard to destoy with any medium, even if you flank them and shoot rear armor.

Aside from AI all mediums are really lackluster in AT capabilities if they are not fighing other mediums. If its not doc.mediums ofcoase.

It's a problem of unit volume which can't be fixed on teamgames unless you make people have a smaller popcap.

Few metas had been more reliant on medium (for teamgames) spam than TD + artillery.

In teamgames you'll be fighting 300+ population and if Every axis player has 1 or 2 Panthers and the game is getting into the late, you will need a wall of TDs and snares to stop the inevitable Panther dive. Like Gachi said. Allies play TDs because Axis play Panthers, and Axis play Panthers because Allies play TDs. Tigers I and II also included and occasional Elefant or Jagd.

gotta learn to formulate myself better.
what i meant is making ALL late game armour come later than they do now, like su-85,jackson,panther,jagd4 + doctrine tanks etc.

introduce more mediums stock into some factions.
And i believe that panther is a TD, but nvm

It's a problem of unit volume which can't be fixed on teamgames unless you make people have a smaller popcap.

Few metas had been more reliant on medium (for teamgames) spam than TD + artillery.

Well it can be fixed ... kinda. If mediums for all factions had more potentual against rear of heavy tanks\Panthers, and if both SU85 and (expecually) Jackson would have follow Firefly excample with lower RoF or other stuff, to make them less deadly against mediums. Because even with panthers, you just need to take this raw damage, but HP difference allow you to take this damage, kill and escape.

AT guns for all factions are usually more then enouth to deal with mediums and scare off heavy tanks if you have more then 1. TDs are just easier to be used and they are more effective in this regard.

Well if thouse metas include commander mediums, then its understandable, because pretty much both USF\Sov mediums can fight panthers and heavy amor, and they outclass other mediums.

It's a problem of unit volume which can't be fixed on teamgames unless you make people have a smaller popcap.

Few metas had been more reliant on medium (for teamgames) spam than TD + artillery.

I think what I would try in regards to team games, is reducing the amount of resource points. Not necessarily the points as a whole as that requires rebalancing and redesigning maps but the points that generate resources. Add in more of the flavor points like medics and repair stations and those watch tower points. Add some variety and reduce resource income at the same time. It'll decrease unit turn around but those units will be a bit reduced in number. The action will remain high but armour will be a bit less expendable

Well it can be fixed ... kinda. If mediums for all factions had more potentual against rear of heavy tanks\Panthers, and if both SU85 and (expecually) Jackson would have follow Firefly excample with lower RoF or other stuff, to make them less deadly against mediums. Because even with panthers, you just need to take this raw damage, but HP difference allow you to take this damage, kill and escape.

AT guns for all factions are usually more then enouth to deal with mediums and scare off heavy tanks if you have more then 1. TDs are just easier to be used and they are more effective in this regard.

Well if thouse metas include commander mediums, then its understandable, because pretty much both USF\Sov mediums can fight panthers and heavy amor, and they outclass other mediums.

I don't agree it's a problem of penetration. It's a problem of unit volume per size of map and focus fire due to volume of units.
A double AT gun wall in 1v1 means a certain sacrifice in map presence and popcap. On teamgames, you are for certain sure that you will have targets and you can depend on your allies for capping or providing vision. Against a 2x AT gun wall, you have 5s to react before your tank dies (If they hit)
What's the best way to deal with AT gun wall? Artillery and infantry. On 1v1 an artillery piece can be risky to use as it leaves you vulnerable and if the enemy is mobile, it won't pay for itself. On teamgames is extremely necessary for the mid to late game.

While the Jackson needs changes, the Su85 is not a problem for mediums (in the sense of been imba) Remember that before the changes it was way more deadlier against mediums as it had better RoF and improved reload on vet, as opposed to the current lower RoF + higher pen.

As you say, medium metas would mostly go in hand with doctrinal vehicles. Either mediums or heavier ones. But since you can no longer use call ins, there's less reasons to stay in lower tiers forever if you will have to tech nonetheless.

I think what I would try in regards to team games, is reducing the amount of resource points. Not necessarily the points as a whole as that requires rebalancing and redesigning maps but the points that generate resources. Add in more of the flavor points like medics and repair stations and those watch tower points. Add some variety and reduce resource income at the same time. It'll decrease unit turn around but those units will be a bit reduced in number. The action will remain high but armour will be a bit less expendable

That's not how you fix the problem. This way you make it even worst.

Why risk it with a 640HP vehicle. Might as well rely more on mp tools (as those are not affected by map resources) and go for artillery which is mostly safe and bulkier vehicles.

I don't agree it's a problem of penetration. It's a problem of unit volume per size of map and focus fire due to volume of units.
A double AT gun wall in 1v1 means a certain sacrifice in map presence and popcap. On teamgames, you are for certain sure that you will have targets and you can depend on your allies for capping or providing vision. Against a 2x AT gun wall, you have 5s to react before your tank dies (If they hit)

That's the source of 90% of the problems in 2v2.

2v2 engagements are full army engagements that result in the complete rout of the defeated player. There is no room for manouvers or skirmishes. Its full force, all the time. There are limits to what mapmakers can do with the given map size, most of it is creating encased areas (the most glaring examples are the factory in Alliance of Defiance and the castle at Eindhoven Country). Imho, we should experiment with bigger map sizes so there is more room to fight, maybe adapt 3v3 maps instead of forcing 1v1 maps into the 2v2 pool

That's not how you fix the problem. This way you make it even worst.

Why risk it with a 640HP vehicle. Might as well rely more on mp tools (as those are not affected by map resources) and go for artillery which is mostly safe and bulkier vehicles.

Well fuck. Then turn every point into a fuel point surely enough fuel to drown in will reduce the number of tanks as well as their dedicated counters.

Well fuck. Then turn every point into a fuel point surely enough fuel to drown in will reduce the number of tanks as well as their dedicated counters.

With low fuel, you get low tier play no medium vehicles (maybe light vehicle) into big impact vehicles.

With big fuel income, you get tech rushes. Low volume of infantry squads, replaced by any type of vehicle available.
MG/light indirect fire/main line infantry gets replaced by any sort of tank + engineers. You basically accelerate into the late late game.


In case one, you don't see mediums. In case 2 you don't see infantry/support weapon play.


People (seems) to like teamgames because they can clash big numbers of units into each other. The reason artillery + TD trump on those scenarios is because of the gamemode.

When you have players having to control a single VP per person at most, having only to traverse half or a quarter of the map, absolute absence of cut off or ways to make bigger economic plays against their opponents, rigid frontlines, etc. you have pretty much a one way to optimally or at least easier way to play the game.

That's the source of 90% of the problems in 2v2.

2v2 engagements are full army engagements that result in the complete rout of the defeated player. There is no room for manouvers or skirmishes. Its full force, all the time. There are limits to what mapmakers can do with the given map size, most of it is creating encased areas (the most glaring examples are the factory in Alliance of Defiance and the castle at Eindhoven Country). Imho, we should experiment with bigger map sizes so there is more room to fight, maybe adapt 3v3 maps instead of forcing 1v1 maps into the 2v2 pool

Mapmakers should follow the example of Whiteball or Steppes in all game modes. Wide open maps of different sizes, not the lane-y BS most maps are.

With low fuel, you get low tier play no medium vehicles (maybe light vehicle) into big impact vehicles.

I don't think it is a problem of low fuel income but constant fuel income. If only fuel points were giving fuel you'd have reason to cut youf opponent from them. At the moment it is sometime more interesting to let your opponent try to cut your fuel while you cap the rest of the map (specially on crossroad with the 2 additional territory points).

Territory points could be giving 1 fuel instead of 3 and fuel points +7 or having 3 fuel points per map so maps would have more strategy dept (rushing fuel or VPs)

I think the low tier play into big impact vehicles has more to do with the forgiveness the game gives to factions having them. The game is too friendly and make it really hard to close a victory only with mediums vs factions with big cats because otherwise players would be complaining they can't have them before losing.

I don't think it is a problem of low fuel income but constant fuel income. If only fuel points were giving fuel you'd have reason to cut youf opponent from them. At the moment it is sometime more interesting to let your opponent try to cut your fuel while you cap the rest of the map (specially on crossroad with the 2 additional territory points).

Territory points could be giving 1 fuel instead of 3 and fuel points +7 or having 3 fuel points per map so maps would have more strategy dept (rushing fuel or VPs)

I think the low tier play into big impact vehicles has more to do with the forgiveness the game gives to factions having them. The game is too friendly and make it really hard to close a victory only with mediums vs factions with big cats because otherwise players would be complaining they can't have them before losing.

That's true, but it's another problem.
Reminder that we were discussing the point that if we were to increment or decrease the general amount of fuel gain we would "solve" the TD + artillery meta in teamgames.

What you describe COULD or not be a possible solution, but that's simple something which has to be done from scratch and not possible for CoH2. Maps n tech timings would be too screwed up.

increase fuel cost for tanks a certain percentage?
how would things be if all the later tanks (tier 4ish TD's,panthers+doc heavies etc) tanks cost ~20-30% more fuel than they do now?
it would work out poorly in some circumstances, but this could give the medium tanks a new life, and the games going through several phases before getting to late-game.

With that approach you better nerf the hell out of all infantry based AT and offmaps which have any sort of AT.

That's true, but it's another problem.
Reminder that we were discussing the point that if we were to increment or decrease the general amount of fuel gain we would "solve" the TD + artillery meta in teamgames.

What you describe COULD or not be a possible solution, but that's simple something which has to be done from scratch and not possible for CoH2. Maps n tech timings would be too screwed up.

I don't think there is a way to solve the medium tank problem because as you say it is inherent to the game mechanism. Why bothering with medium if they can't win your the game vs a faction with heavies?

The idea I had since long time to make mediums more appealing is to give all factions a general upgrade at some point to buy that give buff to all mediums, those buffs could be a set of the following:
Armor increase
Hp increase
Pen increase
Engine damage trigger decrease

Something that make medium tanks a valide solution till the end of the game.