Time to talk about ml20.

Ml20, as in the current status, has the lowest appearance in large scale team games(Since I rarely play any 1v1 game, I can not tell its overall appearance in such game mode). Here are some pro and cons of this unit:
Pro:
1.Greater damage per shell than LeFH.
Cons:
1.Fire two less shell than LeFH.(Fire one additional shell as reaching vet 1)
2.Lack of special ability.
3.Frequently lose to LeFH. (LeFH counter barrage ability has the second-highest arti damage output in this current meta.)

And here are some of my personal opinions of this unit:
Ml20 does shine itself in terms of its high direct-hit damage, which means it is the most promising base destruction arti. However, since it generally fires less shell than LeFH, the chance of hitting is also lower. As most arti have a scatter control ability, ML20 will most likely lose an arti vs. arti battle. The vet one bonus is also not attractive as it only puts itself a little bit on par with its German counterpart.
I will not suggest any changes for now before hearing others' opinions. Maybe I am totally wrong.

Wait....didnt they make the ML20 a clone in all stats from the lefh?

so this both units have the exact same shell dmg and shot the same amount of it?

I recall the ml20 use to do 240 dmg but was deemed to oppressive towards okw hqs (I know it's in the patch notes somewhere). Use to get 2 extra shells to match the lefh but lost one for reasons.

Without looking at stats and using muscle memory, the mls20 has a more lethal aoe thanks to 200 dmg. The lefh counter barrage however does 200 dmg (buffing it's aoe) and a higher fire rate and 2 extra shells. Yes it needs to get to vet 1 but it's easy to see why it would out muscle a ml20 in a duel if it targets it.

So I would probably say for 2 reasons you don't see the ml20 too often more so in team games is because the lefh rof, counter barrage ability (click and forget) and it's extra bonus damage.

Also because in team games the jagur doctrine meta and stukas.

It's just better to pick counters to the lefh or a better commander overall ( besides combined arms army and a lesser extent terror tactics if you plan to go ml20s, dosnt help against stuka bombs through).

I recall the ml20 use to do 240 dmg but was deemed to oppressive towards okw hqs (I know it's in the patch notes somewhere). Use to get 2 extra shells to match the lefh but lost one for reasons.

Without looking at stats and using muscle memory, the mls20 has a more lethal aoe thanks to 200 dmg. The lefh counter barrage however does 200 dmg (buffing it's aoe) and a higher fire rate and 2 extra shells. Yes it needs to get to vet 1 but it's easy to see why it would out muscle a ml20 in a duel if it targets it.

So I would probably say for 2 reasons you don't see the ml20 too often more so in team games is because the lefh rof, counter barrage ability (click and forget) and it's extra bonus damage.

Also because in team games the jagur doctrine meta and stukas.

It's just better to pick counters to the lefh or a better commander overall ( besides combined arms army and a lesser extent terror tactics if you plan to go ml20s, dosnt help against stuka bombs through).

i say it lay in the facts that mobile arti plattforms and B4 are better options for allies to get this commanders. B4 make more booom and cheese and mobile artys cant be countert easily like ML20 or lefh

Wait....didnt they make the ML20 a clone in all stats from the lefh?

so this both units have the exact same shell dmg and shot the same amount of it?

No,
Ml20 deals 200 dmg per shot. And fires eight rounds. (one additional round when reaching vet one)
LeFH deals 160 dmg per shot. And fires 10 rounds. It also fires a bit faster(like 0.25 sec faster per shot)
Other than those, others are exactly the same.(including AOE)
LeFH counter barrage ability decreases scatter.

Agree with the feeling that the ML20 is less effective than the LefH.

Suggestion?

I'd say it shoots bigger shells so it may deal some more AOE dmg than the LefH does. Also, give it back the second extra shell on vet 1 so both arty pieces fire the same amount of shells again.

Apart from that, might move the counter barrage ability of the LefH to vet 3 (and it's vet 3 bonus to vet 2, and the vet 2 to vet 1) if this is applied immediatly move the counter barrage abilities of the other units to vet 3 aswell

i would certainly increase the AOE of the ML20 slightly, the extra dmg compared to LFH certainly doesnt make up for it.

Another thing that indirectly nerfs ML20 is Jäger armor IMO which has both recon and stuka dive bomb. ISU also has bombs but at least no recon. This is also a main reason why ML20 is not seen so much use

Target tables to give it more damage against armour at vet 1? Be more exciting at lest than +1 shell

I've always thought the lack of ML-20 in teamgames were due to the astonishing presence of ISU-152/IL-2 Bomb commander and the fact that UKF/USF have acces to mobile arty in really good commander (maybe the best for each faction), which will always overperform standard arty.

And thus explain why the Lefh is better, since it is the ONLY option available for axis.

how can it be worse than lefh when it makes 200dmg per shell and only one shell less? This is clearly better ...only one shell less is good compensated by 40 extra dmg per shell

i think the fact that allies have mobile arty and better sov commander is the reason that ml20 is not seen often...not that they are worse or something

how can it be worse than lefh when it makes 200dmg per shell and only one shell less? This is clearly better ...only one shell less is good compensated by 40 extra dmg per shell

i think the fact that allies have mobile arty and better sov commander is the reason that ml20 is not seen often...not that they are worse or something

Depends on whether you're lucky or not. It's 2 less shells until vet1. 1 less shell on vet1.
LeFH is superior. More shells = more chance to hit and the damage itself is negligible. If you're targeting tanks (superior mobility) with arty, you'll have a bad time unless it's super clumped up and colliding. Then arty can work but most of the time, arty targeting tanks is useless as they just leave AOE. Hence the extra dmg for "tanks" is pointless. Also, LeFH straight up wins from vet0 to vet3 vs ML20, mainly because of counterbarrage and better scatter. ML20 is only good vs OKW forward positions and encampments. LeFH can even take out Scotts easily enough with counter barrage. Click and forget ability which works wonders in teamgames, forcing the enemy arty/mortars to reposition away from any supporting infantry. I remember having one scott barraging on Port of Hamburg the middle VP, 2 LeFH counterbarrage took out scott and retreating infantry with random scatter. It is also super oppressive on smaller maps like Winnekendonk where it can easily reach your base. LeFH is probably the best arty in game ATM. Oppressive and versatile.

Counter barrage does 200 dmg, I can confirm.

Depends on whether you're lucky or not. It's 2 less shells until vet1. 1 less shell on vet1.
LeFH is superior. More shells = more chance to hit and the damage itself is negligible. If you're targeting tanks (superior mobility) with arty, you'll have a bad time unless it's super clumped up and colliding. Then arty can work but most of the time, arty targeting tanks is useless as they just leave AOE. Hence the extra dmg for "tanks" is pointless. Also, LeFH straight up wins from vet0 to vet3 vs ML20, mainly because of counterbarrage and better scatter. ML20 is only good vs OKW forward positions and encampments. LeFH can even take out Scotts easily enough with counter barrage. Click and forget ability which works wonders in teamgames, forcing the enemy arty/mortars to reposition away from any supporting infantry. I remember having one scott barraging on Port of Hamburg the middle VP, 2 LeFH counterbarrage took out scott and retreating infantry with random scatter. It is also super oppressive on smaller maps like Winnekendonk where it can easily reach your base. LeFH is probably the best arty in game ATM. Oppressive and versatile.

we all have lucky moments with something like arty, right?

i got so many KT, elefants, panthers, Jagdtigers, blobbs etc with B4 that i would choose this unit as the best arty out there...most boom for one click. its like a Sturmtiger shell hitting your units ...while the B4 can be spamed and are pretty cheap and has much more range than a sturmtiger...cant be evade...have no big warning...its the perfect cheese unit

we all have lucky moments with something like arty, right?

i got so many KT, elefants, panthers, Jagdtigers, blobbs etc with B4 that i would choose this unit as the best arty out there...most boom for one click. its like a Sturmtiger shell hitting your units ...while the B4 can be spamed and are pretty cheap and has much more range than a sturmtiger...cant be evade...have no big warning...its the perfect cheese unit

The B4 has been little more than a meme for years. It's too unreliable. Sure, you might pull off an amazing shot here and there but it's often a poor investment. Plus the LefH will counter it easily.

In team games the LefH is seen almost every game. Usually two are built then left on counter battery until the enemy indirect fire is subdued. Then they are usually vetted up enough to fire into the enemy base or anywhere else on the map.

Plus as soviets if you go for ML20 you are going without T34-85s, which a lot of players consider to be a vital unit in team games. Whereas for axis the LefH and doctrines in general are more of a supplement than a requirement.

how can it be worse than lefh when it makes 200dmg per shell and only one shell less? This is clearly better ...only one shell less is good compensated by 40 extra dmg per shell

i think the fact that allies have mobile arty and better sov commander is the reason that ml20 is not seen often...not that they are worse or something

No,
Ml20 deals 200 dmg per shot. And fires eight rounds. (one additional round when reaching vet one)
LeFH deals 160 dmg per shot. And fires 10 rounds. It also fires a bit faster(like 0.25 sec faster per shot)
Other than those, others are exactly the same.(including AOE)
LeFH counter barrage ability decreases scatter.

If MMX's sheet is correct, the ML20 is just straight up worse against infantry in basically every respect. The only part where it is better is the AoE from range 6 to 8 - by doing a whopping 10 damage instead of the 8 damage of the LeFH. In all other regards it's worse. I am not sure if it's a typo or not, but the sheet says ML20 mid range damage is 0,15 compared to 0,35 of the LeFH.

Don't forget also that the ML20 also fires more slowly by about half a second per shot (0,5 sec in my book), meaning the barrage times are roughly the same, but the LeFH gets 1-2 shells more.

So if the sheet is correct, the ML20 could excel against static structures with the higher base damage at vet 1, but that's about it.

how about making the ml-20 fire shorter barrages(fewer shells), and reduce the cooldown?
because if you miss your intended target, you have shorter cooldown to try again somewhere else, instead of waiting 1min-ish for cooldown. keeping the dpm/dmg per hour? the same. making it a more versatile arty, right inbetween the b4 and lefh105?

If MMX's sheet is correct, the ML20 is just straight up worse against infantry in basically every respect. The only part where it is better is the AoE from range 6 to 8 - by doing a whopping 10 damage instead of the 8 damage of the LeFH. In all other regards it's worse. I am not sure if it's a typo or not, but the sheet says ML20 mid range damage is 0,15 compared to 0,35 of the LeFH.

Don't forget also that the ML20 also fires more slowly by about half a second per shot (0,5 sec in my book), meaning the barrage times are roughly the same, but the LeFH gets 1-2 shells more.

So if the sheet is correct, the ML20 could excel against static structures with the higher base damage at vet 1, but that's about it.

hah, just checked the editor again and you're right about the near and mid aoe dmg being wrong. should be 0.9, 0.25, 0.05 instead, meaning both field guns have nearly identical aoe profiles (except the massive 2 dmg difference at far to max range you've already hinted at).

so all in all, the ml20 is pretty much an inferior version of the lefh in almost every possible scenario, despite the higher base damage.

how about making the ml-20 fire shorter barrages(fewer shells), and reduce the cooldown?
because if you miss your intended target, you have shorter cooldown to try again somewhere else, instead of waiting 1min-ish for cooldown. keeping the dpm/dmg per hour? the same. making it a more versatile arty, right in between the b4 and lefh105?

I think this would make it hugely annoying to play against. These two units are meant to be area denial, forcing the players to really choose important targets. Against infantry the first 2-3 shells are all that matter, afterwards all squads will be gone one way or the other.

This would be a really huge buff to the unit because of that. These harassment tasks should be done by normal mortars that are more vulnerable and don't have as much alpha damage.

like you say 2 arty shells is enough for the INF etc in the barraged region to move away anyway.
honestly don't want the ml-20 and 105 lefh to be equal power-wise, since 105 lefh is the only long range arty axis has.

Ml-20 needs something different to be viable in the meta, perhaps a new special ability?

wild suggestions:
-continous bombardment: pumps out more shells, but slower rate of fire, higher scatter, for a different area denial. making pushes/dives risky but possible.
-sector overwatch: select a sector that the ml-20 can autofire, but slower, once someone enters it, somewhat like suggestion above.
-AP shelling: ISU uses the same gun, why not give it a AP-barrage for an anti tank role? little use against INF, but good dmg against armour.
-self-spotting: in form of flare or recon at desired location? might be way too OP...
-poison gas barrage?
-conscript barrage: loads dutiful conscripst into the barrel, and launches/shoots them across the battlefield, and stalin(RNG) willing, a certain amount might survive and wreak havoc behind enemy lines.

fix vet 1 barrage cooldown icon bug please