State of OKW in the meta

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 08:30 AMachpawel

Yes... but it gets eaten by tank destroyers without significant difference. You also pay more for it. But honestly the problem is that two Jacksons will be repaired in the nick of time while a damaged p4 will need more time than both of them. If OKW has two tanks and, for example, one with a damaged engine it is generally gg. Allies will usually manage to save such tanks much more often.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 11:40 AMMr Carmine

Maybe allied td's have to be better for allies to compete in the late game? You know a trade off for having less durable and less powerfull tanks with less range then a panther. Esp okw units whom start withvall the bonusses ost needs to get via veterancy.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 12:29 PMachpawel

It is balanced well. More range vs more armour. The repair and sweeping is not balanced. You need to withdraw expensive units from the frontline and maybe even build more of them while Your opponent will just exit the crew, buy repair/sweeping units more cheaply, etc. Volks with a sweeper would just even it out.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 12:29 PMachpawel

It is balanced well. More range vs more armour. The repair and sweeping is not balanced. You need to withdraw expensive units from the frontline and maybe even build more of them while Your opponent will just exit the crew, buy repair/sweeping units more cheaply, etc. Volks with a sweeper would just even it out.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 14:09 PMSerrith

Volks with sweeper is fine assuming it takes up all weapon slots. I'm OK with repairs being attached as well, though I'd propose the repairs be slower then normal engineers. They should additionally be locked behind a headquarters setup and the sweepers should not be able to be put away.

Sweeper volks is roughly comparable to 5man sweeper royal engineers with advantages and disadvantages to both.

The major benefits to it are that sturmpioneers are no longer sadled with being the only sweepers and repair units and making the shrek and doctrinal flamethrower far more viable, and losing a sturm isn't as punishing in the mid and late game.

The only potential downside is that okw will spot mines more often, but then all other factions can afford to have 2-3 sweeper squads roaming the field while okw typically can't afford to. This just evens the odds.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 14:12 PMMr Carmine

So earlier you say okw armour gets eaten alive by allied td's. And its balanced now between range and armour?

You dont need to withdraw more expensive units from the frontline always. Okw can have a repair building if they choose to do so.

The opponents can send out cheaper repair units or just pop out the crew. All well and balanced when their tanks dont bounce basicly anything bigger then a 222/luchs rounds and have less hp and less pen. Then everything from okw mediums and up is just straight up better in all but costs.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 02:22 AMthedarkarmadillo

okw has both effective and flexible light vehcle play as well as medium/ heavy play where the lowest armoured vehcle has 230 armour

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 02:22 AMthedarkarmadillo

pak walls are hard countered with the stuka

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 02:22 AMthedarkarmadillo

all allied TDS are countered by the JP$ (jackson less so because reasons but will still lose in a slugging match)

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 02:22 AMthedarkarmadillo

to say the okw armour isnt the best around is simply false. they have great options and great performance as well as great scaling and can benifit from pop free repairs, when combined with sturms and sweepers gets them back onto the field very fast.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 02:22 AMthedarkarmadillo

you pay a lot with okw, but you get much more. you are also very well rewarded for keeping your shit alive, like your engineers for example....

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 15:00 PMachpawel

IMO You seem to be playing too much as allies. And armour does get eaten far range. That is the problem. Axis are forced to dive - it is far more dangerous than sitting behing AT walls/infantry screen and dealing damage from far range. If axis have to stop the push and retreat they lose too much time compared to allies repairing their stuff.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

thats not how armour works. any chance to bounce is a boon, a 25% chance to bounce (as the up armoured p4 has at max range from a standard AT gun) means the 4 shots to kill a normal tank may well not happen in succession. let alone the times where a small chance to bounce leads to RNG saying its going to happen everytime. if you are discounting a chance to take 0 damage in a scenario that could literally be the difference between losing the tank and getting out you are not arguing in good faith.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

at any rate im not entirely sure what doctinal armour has to do with okw having the best tanks around....

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

the fact that you need to predict where the rockets are targeting and if you dont you will lose it makes it a hard counter. also i didnt even mention the stukas ability to destroy team weapons sometimes, but since you brought it up that sure sounds hard countery to me....
the fact that you need to predict where the rockets are targeting and if you dont you will lose it makes it a hard counter. also i didnt even mention the stukas ability to destroy team weapons sometimes, but since you brought it up that sure sounds hard countery to me....

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

as for the stuka one click delete thing... its said for a reason.. you can walk it right up any defensive line and its extremely powerful. worst case it dislodges the enemy, best case it results in wipes. thats absolutly solid.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

hard counters counting tanks hard does not mean the tanks are not top of their class. the okw p4 makes medium tank combat one sided and forces TDs while still mulching infantry. it wouldnt do that if it wasnt a good tank.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

its true that the sherman has utility and the t34 is cheaper, but that does not mean the okw p4 isnt a better tank. cherry picking this and that doesnt hold water.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

yea... its a game based on unit preservation. sorry keeeping your shit alive is so important. you are going to (hopefully) be doing it anyways, okw benifit more from it ONTOP of already getting what they pay for in raw stats- which is to say more. better.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:22 PMGachiGasm

Yeah reminds me soviet NKVD commisar, with its ability costing 20 muni less because it has 20% chance of bad RNG and 70% chance of good RNG.

25% is a only can really make a diffrence if you face 1 AT\TD and you are unlucky. Other then that 65% of succsess is pretty much stable and more or less predictable rng.

because there is no alignment for RNG to keep it true 25% can mean nothing or it can mean 7 bounces in a row. 25% chance to receive no damage is decent enough odds. but it help against any number of threats. if it takes 4 shots to kill being able to bounce even one shot, or say, 25% of incoming shots can make a difference.

Because it either that\heavyes or TDs it would face almost always.

and the p4 will do better against those targets than any other stock medium because of its better stats and scaling...


It is hard counter, but its not AS POWERFULL as ppl tend to present this unit. Its not some magic unit which will solve all your problems with support weapons. I'm not saying that it should. But saying "hurr you can have stuka to solve AT gun walls" is at very best misleading. Sometimes it can, sometimes it cant.


Or it can miss (by unit beeing between rockets), or it might didnt finish, or enemy can doudge. You really should speak about this aswell, not only about the part where it is effective.
I'il repeat myself, I dont think its weak, buts its not a magic unit either.


except it does. the enemy can spread out and it can miss this is true, RNG is RNG after all, but on the whole it is a hard counter. anyways you cant really use " it could miss" as an argument. an elefant could miss a universal carrier but i still consider it a hard counter. the stuka is designed to break up pak walls. thats its thing. it does it well

PIV doesnt force allies into TDs. Allies themself force themself into TDs. Because if Axis would go for heavy armor TDs would counter them, if Axis go for mediums TDs would counter them.
The same you as Axis shouldn't go for mediums if Allies are bringing doc mediums or Heavy tanks.
Its the same logic.

allies go for TDs both because they are fucking strong, and because their mediums cant fight effectivly against heavy armour (thus the TDs) all okw non light armour qualifies as heavy armour, exceeding the values of anything the combined 3 allied factions can field non doc with the lone exceptions of hammer/anvil tanks that are mutually exclusive. the p4 gives medium tank supremacy.

And its not THAT one-sided. OKW PIV armod doesnt make other mediums to feel like fighing tiger with T34\76 from the front.
i never said it was that one sided, nothing close, but a t34/76 has roughtly a 1 in 3 chance to pen the front of an okw p4. thats pretty damn close to making the t34 useless in a tank fight against a p4. the game is about positioning and plauying the odds. the better the odds the better your chance of winning. the okw p4 has the better odds.


You are doing cherry picking by comparing PIV to other mediums in a Allies TD\Call-in heavy dominated meta.

Lets say obersoldaten are the best long range AI inf and they have 5 vet. OKW inf play is OP.
That is if we just igrone that by the time they come they face vetted\upped inf.

Yes its overall perfomance better then other stock mediums. Does it change the fact that it wont face other stock mediums most of the time? No it doesnt. It corrent meta and corrent faction designes, its on pair with other mediums in terms of its impact, not stats vise.
you dont pay for impact, you pay for stats. your luchs doesnt cost more if i buildi nothing but comabt engineers and never build a lick of AT. my t-70 doesnt get any cheaper if the ost player layed a teller on a road and i drove over it without it firing a shot. its impossible to price like that.


Again RAW STATS of unit is better, but its makes sence only when compared to its counterparts.

reread the underlined bits one after another if you would be so kind.

If by the time OKW would have had PIV allies could have had only Mediums (as you seem to like base your opinion on) then this raw stats would have made sence.
the enemy build is as fluid as your own. they could have any number of things but that doesnt change the stats of the p4. which is best in class.

Again I want to point it out. I'm not saying OKW armor is weaker, I'm not saying allies are stronger. I'm saying that OKW armor aside from POSSIBLE vet and RAW STATS arent the best in the game, considering meta and what it would face.

you cant say they arnt the best because the enemy might have a counter on hand. they have the best stats doesnt mean they are uncounterable. the JT has the highest armour in the game for example, saying it can be rammed and il-bombed does not change that at all. it still has the highest armour, being able to get armour that by another means doesnt lower its armour (unless its WC-51 which actually DOES lower its armour, but interestingly enough it retains the highest armour even when lowered...)

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

25% of incoming shots can make a difference.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

allies go for TDs both because they are fucking strong, and because their mediums cant fight effectivly against heavy armour (thus the TDs) all okw non light armour qualifies as heavy armour

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

the p4 gives medium tank supremacy.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

and the p4 will do better against those targets than any other stock medium because of its better stats and scaling...

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

the stuka is designed to break up pak walls. thats its thing. it does it well

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

nothing close, but a t34/76 has roughtly a 1 in 3 chance to pen the front of an okw p4. thats pretty damn close to making the t34 useless in a tank fight against a p4.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

the better the odds the better your chance of winning. the okw p4 has the better odds.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

you dont pay for impact, you pay for stats.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

the enemy build is as fluid as your own. they could have any number of things but that doesnt change the stats of the p4. which is best in class.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 18:59 PMthedarkarmadillo

you cant say they arnt the best because the enemy might have a counter on hand. they have the best stats doesnt mean they are uncounterable

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 17:46 PMMr Carmine

Your assumption that i am playing allies to much is mostly correct. I dont have the time to really play as much nowadays. Got a new job and 3 kids. So i stick with soviets if i am able to play. It doesnt make my points less valuable though. I have a reasonable understanding off how things work in coh2. And i really love this game.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 17:46 PMMr Carmine

Sitting from behind at walls with inf screening is indeed safer. I also think the chance to pen at max range for td's is to high, though we do have to thank the stock kt for that.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 17:46 PMMr Carmine

But on the flip side t34's cromwells's shermans's dont get to bounce much and are not as durable, unlike all okw armour and ost t4 armour. So it makes perfect sence for allies to have stronger td options/walls, they are almost forced into them because of the reasons i mentioned above.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 17:46 PMMr Carmine

Also esp okw has 2 good units to deal with at gun walls from a pretty safe distance.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 17:46 PMMr Carmine

Okw loosing more time repairing has to do with larger health pools.and Sturm repair pretty fast already.
Allies usualy have more tanks to repair at the same time if they dont loose one outright in an engagement.

Jump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 07:29 AMachpawel

You do but my opinion is that playing the opposite side will make everybody much better at playing their preferred faction. It is really hard to explain it in detail but it just makes one play so much better then. You just know how to handle the opponent's units much better. You know their weaknesses or You are just able to appreciate how good, for example, somebody was with repositioning their mg rather than believing that their mg is better.

But the problem is that those tanks have just one cannon that often shoots less often, their speed is much lower, etc. It ends up with being a huge damage sponge and has to retreat for repairs. Anyway, this is fairly well balanced in an asymmetrical way. I don't think that anything needs to be adjusted here much. The problem is that the impact of axis armour is much lower due to slow repair speeds or more complicated way of arranging them or just the necessity to pay so much more for the same repair results. Same with sweeping.

Yes, and this is pretty well balanced. What is not balanced it the cost of repair units, their availability and how much more manpower axis (OKW especially) need to use to keep their tanks running when compared with allies (especially USF). Also remember that axis often pay much more for those tanks, which again may make them arrive too late. Also remember that p4 from okw will be shooting at even 5-7 men squads and its aoe has to be larger to make sure it creates similar manpower bleed to allied tanks shooting primarily at 4-5 men squads. So some of, for example, p4 stats make it even with Cromwell or Sherman even if the are a bit higher at vet 0. So the higher price will not necessarily reflect better performance when you realise it will face different types of infantry units (more models, cheaper reinforcement cost per model).

I think one stock unit. But again this is pretty well balanced.

This should be better balanced. Sturm is too expensive to cover the fact that USF will have crews plus echelons and Soviets will have very cheap CEs on top of a lot of doctrine repair options (Cons, stations, self-repair) and the UKF will start buying sappers for as little as 210mp. Their reinforcement cost will also be cheaper and they will bleed you less. What is more, allies will spend the saved manpower on more infantry, at weapons, etc creating the situation in which the axis player will have to decide if they prefer to lose the infantry war or repair their armour. Speed is just one factor, the manpower economy behind is even more important.

So imo Volks could be balanced around the concept of their armour support rather then buffing their combat performance. A sweeper, reducing a volks squad combat performance (can't be stg upgraded) but allowing OKW to finally have similar chances of clearing mines and repairing stuff to allies is a good solution. OKW will still be inferior to allies probably as crews will repair faster without any cost and sappers/CEs are cheaper anyway. OKW will sacrifice combat performance and munitions to have this extra sweeper so it shouldn't be a big deal. It will just free up the OKW player from the need to buy 300mp unit with 30 reinforcement cost to just sweep for mines and repair.

Jump back to quoted post9 Aug 2020, 14:09 PMSerrith

Volks with sweeper is fine assuming it takes up all weapon slots. I'm OK with repairs being attached as well, though I'd propose the repairs be slower then normal engineers. They should additionally be locked behind a headquarters setup and the sweepers should not be able to be put away.

Sweeper volks is roughly comparable to 5man sweeper royal engineers with advantages and disadvantages to both.

The major benefits to it are that sturmpioneers are no longer sadled with being the only sweepers and repair units and making the shrek and doctrinal flamethrower far more viable, and losing a sturm isn't as punishing in the mid and late game.

The only potential downside is that okw will spot mines more often, but then all other factions can afford to have 2-3 sweeper squads roaming the field while okw typically can't afford to. This just evens the odds.

Jump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 10:12 AMullumulu

this is not true. you can get royl engis with sapper and even upgrade them with double vickers or piats or other upgrades. And this double vickers engis arent this weak like u act here. they are really good for the price u pay for a 5model sqaud with all this abiltys.

Jump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 11:59 AMSupport Sapper

Make stum come with mp40 and their cost can be lowered to other engine units. The stating one can still have stg, but if you buy new stum they will come with mp40 and u will have to upgrade to stg.