Tiger VI Overnerfed?

Sure bro, you're the best bro!



Totaly right bro!

Say what you want. 90% of searches start off with 80% Axis 20% allies searching which gets to 60/40 until 5-10 minutes and then the match is found. The other 10% are 90% allies 10% axis searches.

I did. It was largely ignored because this community (especially those who still post here) is now 90% Axis mains.

Say what you want about the Tiger, the Pershing got it much worse. Honestly what they did to heavies in the last balance patch was such a lazy thing to do. They just basically changed all three multi-role heavies the same way without regard to how each unit fits into each faction.

tiger_sdkfz_181_mp

1: tiger_kwk36_88mm_mp:

Penetration near 240
Penetration mid 220
Penetration far 200
AOE Radius 3.5
Distance near 0
Distance mid 1
Distance far 3
Damage near 120
Damage mid 40
Damage far 24
Reload duration 4.7 - 5.3

m26_pershing_mp

1: m26_m3_90mm_gun_mp

Penetration near 260
Penetration mid 240
Penetration far 220
AOE Radius 4
Distance near 0
Distance mid 1
Distance far 3.25
Damage near 120
Damage mid 64
Damage far 28
Reload duration 5.5

So basically, Pershing is still (arguably) way better than tiger in AI and AT bar the range advantage of tiger, plus the Pershing is being supported by Jacksons. I would agree that all heavies were hit hard, but that's very healthy for the infantry and strategic, in general, gameplay (just look how many infantry based commanders resurfaced after the nerfs).

I still play heavy tanks and really enjoy them, the thing right now is that you have to play them hit and run style, maybe they can overstay for a bit longer since they can soak 1-2 more shots. Also, heavies are very map dependent. You can't pick a pershing or tiger on Steppes and then complain they are swiss cheesed... I prefer them on urban maps, since most of them come with infantry well suited for close range combat.

tiger_sdkfz_181_mp

So basically, Pershing is still (arguably) way better than tiger in AI and AT bar the range advantage of tiger, plus the Pershing is being supported by Jacksons. I would agree that all heavies were hit hard, but that's very healthy for the infantry and strategic, in general, gameplay (just look how many infantry based commanders resurfaced after the nerfs).

I still play heavy tanks and really enjoy them, the thing right now is that you have to play them hit and run style, maybe they can overstay for a bit longer since they can soak 1-2 more shots. Also, heavies are very map dependent. You can't pick a pershing or tiger on Steppes and then complain they are swiss cheesed... I prefer them on urban maps, since most of them come with infantry well suited for close range combat.

Tiger is still better at AT since the reload is shorter and the fact that only Brits have the premium Comet/Churchill on stock that a Tiger can bounce on (taking medium range). Tiger won't bounce on any stock soviet tank (IS-2 and ISU152 doctrinal can only bounce)
Tiger vs Brits, only Comet can bounce (Churchill bounces rarely vs Tiger except Churchill Croc which bounces 1 in 4).
Tiger vs USF, only doctrinal Pershing can bounce (1 bounce in 5).

Pershing vs OST: All doctrinal heavies bounce, Panther bounces, Sturmpanzer bounces (rarely 1 in 10)
Pershing vs OKW: All doctrinal heavies, Konigstiger (long range P4 and Jagdpanzer, also very rarely)

So, Tiger most of the time doesn't need a lot of penetration to reap havoc vs allies.
All it needs is some veterancy and a bit of infantry support to negate ally TDs (or get a helping hand from Jagdpanzer TD). Walking stukas and werfers are good arty to damage Jackson and SU-85 before the push. I've done it multiple times playing OKW Tiger vs jacksons mainly. Albeit that was standard casual Whiteball gaming so no fuss.

And last but not least, vet3 Tiger vs vet3 Pershing still has ~0.5 sec shorted reload time which can be detrimental in the thick of the fight. So, stock Axis has Panther which is a direct counter to Pershing and as a big investment, Pershing needs to be able to trade hits with it for some time to get support vs Panther.

That's the jest of it. Adding more penetration on Tiger wouldn't result in a buff while adding more penetration on Pershing wouldn't result in much, as Axis heavies have a lot of armour (375+ OKW, 300+ OST), so that would equate to a couple of percentages higher pen chance.

Pershing to cost the same as those tanks while having much lower survivability for a fractionally better AI cannon is not worth it in my book.

What about Perhsing then? It was good at AI, now it's mediocre at it. Armour is that of Panther, HP is that of Panther and AT is weaker than Panther. It's 13 CP and in a commander who's only good thing are the rangers. Plus it's as expensive as other heavies.

In other words, blobs are not afraid of it anymore, can't bounce anything except P4s so breakthroughs are a no-no. It's only good thing is the veterancy 3 when it becomes somewhat viable (which is often hard in teamgames for a "squishy" heavy).

What about Pershing?

I've been saying this for months.

Pershing costs way more than a standard Panther but can barely do anything better than a standard panther.

How not to offtopic:
Dont talk about about pershing in a tiger thread.

Simple.

Say what you want. 90% of searches start off with 80% Axis 20% allies searching which gets to 60/40 until 5-10 minutes and then the match is found. The other 10% are 90% allies 10% axis searches.

Speaking from specifically a 1v1 perspective I dont find this to be the case. I won't say that there isnt greater or fewer players on one side or other, but the numbers in my experience dont favor one or the other too heavily overall.

Say what you want. 90% of searches start off with 80% Axis 20% allies searching which gets to 60/40 until 5-10 minutes and then the match is found. The other 10% are 90% allies 10% axis searches.

Keep creating your own stats to fit with what you think, the reality is totaly different, but sure bro, you must be right because it is you bro!

Keep creating your own stats to fit with what you think, the reality is totaly different, but sure bro, you must be right because it is you bro!

I used to be like that in the past. 80 to 90% searching as axis. Nowadays ime its 60% axis and 40% allies. Better then ever ime.

The amount of axis up/buff axis and allied op/nerf allies threads do indicate that the axis player base is larger or more vocal at least.
Ever since i joined here axis wanting buffs for axis or nerfs for allies have more threads then what allied threads asking for buffs for allies or axis nerfs.

tiger_sdkfz_181_mp

1: tiger_kwk36_88mm_mp:

Penetration near 240
Penetration mid 220
Penetration far 200
AOE Radius 3.5
Distance near 0
Distance mid 1
Distance far 3
Damage near 120
Damage mid 40
Damage far 24
Reload duration 4.7 - 5.3

m26_pershing_mp

1: m26_m3_90mm_gun_mp

Penetration near 260
Penetration mid 240
Penetration far 220
AOE Radius 4
Distance near 0
Distance mid 1
Distance far 3.25
Damage near 120
Damage mid 64
Damage far 28
Reload duration 5.5

So basically, Pershing is still (arguably) way better than tiger in AI and AT bar the range advantage of tiger, plus the Pershing is being supported by Jacksons. I would agree that all heavies were hit hard, but that's very healthy for the infantry and strategic, in general, gameplay (just look how many infantry based commanders resurfaced after the nerfs).

To get things straight:
- Pershing has a total reload time of 7 seconds at vet0 and 5,35 sec at vet 3 (because you neglected 1 sec of wind down an the delay between phases) while Tiger has an (average) total reload of 5,375 at vet 0 and 3,875 at vet 3. Sometimes I have seen that the formula is still not 100% correct, maybe because the stat data might be off by a tick or so, but for the most part it has been pretty trustworthy. This makes the Tiger better by 30/38%.

- Penetration values are usually useless for direct comparison between Axis and Allies, because both sides have generally higher/lower armor values. 100 pen for an Axis vehicle is more than for an Allied vehicle. The same way, 100 armor for Axis is worth less than for Allies, generally speaking. The Tiger has enough pen to deal with all Allied stock vehicles except for Comet/Churchill. And while the Pershing is for the most part reliable against Axis stock heavy armor (Panther, Brummbär), it can still bounce with about 10% chance.

- (edited) And the most important part: Pershing can take 1 shot less. This makes the (unsnared) Tiger 20% better.

Speaking from specifically a 1v1 perspective I dont find this to be the case. I won't say that there isnt greater or fewer players on one side or other, but the numbers in my experience dont favor one or the other too heavily overall.

I don't know about 1v1 but starting the search from Croatia (South-eastern Europe) in 3v3 mode, most of the time it will be heavily leaned to Axis. As the search continues the percentages equalize. That's my personal experience with 3v3. I've had search times of less than 10 seconds too. Search-50/50-game found... and I've had searches that started with 97% Allies and 3% Axis players. Most of the time though it's Axis in 3v3 from Croatia any time of day. I know this because I actually count it in my notepad to which I alt tab.

Again, this is 3v3 only. Don't know about any other mode.

To get things straight:
- Pershing has a total reload time of 7 seconds at vet0 and 5,35 sec at vet 3 (because you neglected 1 sec of wind down an the delay between phases) while Tiger has an (average) total reload of 5,375 at vet 0 and 3,875 at vet 3. Sometimes I have seen that the formula is still not 100% correct, maybe because the stat data might be off by a tick or so, but for the most part it has been pretty trustworthy. This makes the Tiger better by 30/38%.

- Penetration values are usually useless for direct comparison between Axis and Allies, because both sides have generally higher/lower armor values. 100 pen for an Axis vehicle is more than for an Allied vehicle. The same way, 100 armor for Axis is worth less than for Allies, generally speaking. The Tiger has enough pen to deal with all Allied stock vehicles except for Comet/Churchill. And while the Pershing is for the most part reliable against Axis stock heavy armor (Panther, Brummbär), it can still bounce with about 10% chance.

- And the most important part: Pershing can take 2 shots less (can someone cross check that? I can't at the moment and 800 HP sounds quite low, although I think it is correct). This makes the (unsnared) Tiger 40% better. With snare still 20%

Basically what I said in a couple of posts upward, don't understand how some people can't grasp that.

Pershing has 960HP: Taken from the last pershing patch in the official forum. Armor was nerfed to 270 and HP increased to 960.

Basically what I said in a couple of posts upward, don't understand how some people can't grasp that.

Pershing has 960HP: Taken from the last pershing patch in the official forum. Armor was nerfed to 270 and HP increased to 960.

Perfect, thanks. Didn't update that yet, already had the feeling that something was off.

I personally don't like what they did with ANY of the standard multirole heavy tanks. They were triple nerfed just to change the meta. All they needed was a CP increase, they didn't have to nerf them into the ground on top of that.

And of course USF got screwed the hardest because Pershing was only in ONE otherwise mediocre doctrine and it was the ONLY good USF heavy tank and call in. So naturally they made you pay more for an inferior tank.

It's like what happened with the Fallschrimjagers but in reverse. "Hurr durr no one uses Falls, lets make them cheaper, stronger and arrive earlier!"

At least the Tiger is in multiple doctrines, isn't the only heavy tank available to Wehrmacht or OKW, and you aren't paying more for it.

And of course USF got screwed the hardest

amisamisamisamisamisamisamisamisamis
Finally the truth is revealed

not even. USF has great choices in all compartments.
they even has all tools to win with cheese most team games (say hello to calliope spam combined with 3x bazooka squads which carry 3 handheld ATs and bring a panther down in no time. while the caliope wipe all targets ...while the enemy has no reaction time vs this shit..and have fun to try dive into triple bazooka squads

psst... i think he's being sarcastic

not even. USF has great choices in all compartments.
they even has all tools to win with cheese most team games (say hello to calliope spam combined with 3x bazooka squads which carry 3 handheld ATs and bring a panther down in no time. while the caliope wipe all targets ...while the enemy has no reaction time vs this shit..and have fun to try dive into triple bazooka squads