SU-85 and SU-76

And how would that work without botching its performance overall?

Slightly buff scatter and increase the moving penalty to scatter, would at least nerf the retreat wipes. Not that hard to come up with something like that.

When you need doctrine to survive, base army does not work.
We've been there already, lets not go back.

there are penals and lots of doctrines with pretty strong (some may say over performing) elite infantry. Also last time I checked con reinforcement were 20 mp on base squad. If you don't like concept of doctrines you should play other RTS' then I agree that it is a shame that if you want to win you are almoust forced to pick certain doctrines with soviets, but con balance is not what you want to upset, especially without looking at grenadier's performance more closely.

About the t70 situation, people should look at t34-76 and how favorably it trades with its counterpart p4. Just to be clear doctrinal logic does not apply here, since only 3 doctrines have t34-85 with only 2 of them being playable.

Regarding the SU76, it just came to my mind that it could get a stun shot ability similar to the StuG limited to 50 range (should be short enough however to dodge IL2 bombs). Or some turret disabling/lock etc, whatever fits best.

Although it's a bit of "mixing factions" again, the ability would at least be very unique to Soviets and reinforce it's AT role.
Swapping it for the barrage will likely be a nerf overall, but maybe the barrage could be moved to vet1.

there are penals and lots of doctrines with pretty strong (some may say over performing) elite infantry. Also last time I checked con reinforcement were 20 mp on base squad. If you don't like concept of doctrines you should play other RTS' then I agree that it is a shame that if you want to win you are almoust forced to pick certain doctrines with soviets, but con balance is not what you want to upset, especially without looking at grenadier's performance more closely.

About the t70 situation, people should look at t34-76 and how favorably it trades with its counterpart p4. Just to be clear doctrinal logic does not apply here, since only 3 doctrines have t34-85 with only 2 of them being playable.

I've addressed that already, go read my post again, but this time last longer then just 1st sentence.

You are either extremely confused or don't pay any attention to what is being said, because you keep repeating points that were already covered and debunked.

Regarding the SU76, it just came to my mind that it could get a stun shot ability similar to the StuG limited to 50 range (should be short enough however to dodge IL2 bombs). Or some turret disabling/lock etc, whatever fits best.

Although it's a bit of "mixing factions" again, the ability would at least be very unique to Soviets and reinforce it's AT role.
Swapping it for the barrage will likely be a nerf overall, but maybe the barrage could be moved to vet1.

I think about possible change - remove T4.

In T3 you have regular T3 units:T-70, M5, SU-76. T-34/76, katy and su-86 locked.

2 upgrades:
1 stage: unlock t-34/76
2 stage: unlock su-85 and katy

With 1 stage su-76 maube can get some buffs. Than you can play combo SU-76+T-34. But overall idea make arrive t-34 a bit sooner, while su-85 and katy later than now. It closer to OH design, but system more easy to balance through cost of upgrades than current T3 all units + T4 all units.
Also 2 stage unlock heavy tanks.
Right now we have very big gap between T3 and T4. With such changes we can reduce the gap and make overall gameplay more smoother.

I think about possible change - remove T4.

In T3 you have regular T3 units:T-70, M5, SU-76. T-34/76, katy and su-86 locked.

2 upgrades:
1 stage: unlock t-34/76
2 stage: unlock su-85 and katy

With 1 stage su-76 can get some buffs. Than you can play combo SU-76+T-34. But overall idea make arrive t-34 a bit sooner, while su-85 and katy later than now. It closer to OH design, but system more easy to balance through cost of upgrades than current T3 all units + T4 all units.

I don't know what this should achieve.
Option 1 is you generate a big pay gap between stage 1 and 2 to enforce building a SU76. This does not help for unit variety and playstyle for Soviets, while simultaneously screwing important unit timings as you already mentioned.
Or Option 2 is you do not generate a big pay gap to keep the total tech cost stable, but then it does not achieve much. Unless you introduce a long tech timer to delay the SU85, but I don't know why that should be desirable.

I don't know what this should achieve.
Option 1 is you generate a big pay gap between stage 1 and 2 to enforce building a SU76. This does not help for unit variety and playstyle for Soviets, while simultaneously screwing important unit timings as you already mentioned.
Or Option 2 is you do not generate a big pay gap to keep the total tech cost stable, but then it does not achieve much. Unless you introduce a long tech timer to delay the SU85, but I don't know why that should be desirable.

Stage 1 will not enforce build su-76, but make it more desirable as medium counter if you make upgrade. Right now you don't need su-76 to counter mediums, su-85 do it much better. T-34 give you enough field pressure, while possible su-76 will give enough AT. But it don't mean that you need SU-76 (it just give it role as dedicated anti-medium unit), you still can play through T2+t-70 and get t-34 sooner than now. But without su-85 you must rely only on zis as AT. Want premium TD, make Stage 2.

At least in such position SU-76 have role as anti-medium and SU-85 as premium TD against heavy targets, not "build to counter all armor unit". Su-76 and earlier t-34 can play together. While in current design, when T4 deploy all T3 units lost their potential immediately.

Also with new design, builded su-76 don't delay all your T4 units. You can get early t-34 and play them together. You make Stage 1 and get access to t-34. The first crucial unit of old t4 is unlocked.

Stage 1 will not enforce build su-76, but make it more desirable as medium counter if you make upgrade. Right now you don't need su-76 to counter mediums, su-85 do it much better. T-34 give you enough field pressure, while possible su-76 will give enough AT. But it don't mean that you need SU-76 (it just give it role as dedicated anti-medium unit), you still can play through T2+t-70 and get t-34 sooner than now. But without su-85 you must rely only on zis as AT. Want premium TD, make Stage 2.

At least in such position SU-76 have role as anti-medium and SU-85 as premium TD against heavy targets, not "build to counter all armor unit". Su-76 and earlier t-34 can play together. While in current design, when T4 deploy all T3 units lost their potential immediately.

Also with new design, builded su-76 don't delay all your T4 units. You can get early t-34 and play them together. You make Stage 1 and get access to t-34. The first crucial unit of old t4 is unlocked.

You should give some ideas about the pricing, because at the moment this is completely unclear and it is not directly visible where you are going.

Will reaching stage 2 be more costly in total that currently reaching T4?
If so, it is soft enforcing to build a SU76 as tank counter.

If not, the only option is a long tech time to reach SU85, but you also screw with T34 timing. Additionally, if the SU76 is supposed to be a medium counter that should also be build in the later stages against medium spams (like the StuG), you cannot avoid reworking the SU85. By the long tech duration you could maybe "enforce" to build 1 single SU76, but after that everyone will go ZiS/SU85 again like it is now.

You should give some ideas about the pricing, because at the moment this is completely unclear and it is not directly visible where you are going.

Will reaching stage 2 be more costly in total that currently reaching T4?
If so, it is soft enforcing to build a SU76 as tank counter.

If not, the only option is a long tech time to reach SU85, but you also screw with T34 timing. Additionally, if the SU76 is supposed to be a medium counter that should also be build in the later stages against medium spams (like the StuG), you avoid reworking the SU85. By the long tech duration you could maybe "enforce" to build 1 single SU76, but after that everyone will go ZiS/SU85 again like it is now.

I look to digits at evening and try to show how it could be.

OK let's take a look:

My suggestions:

T3:
SU-76 changes:
1. Su-76 - HE barrage replaced by "Smoke shot" - like Cromwell have.
2. SU-76 have stock 140 damage.
3. Vet2 +20 damage is removed.
4. "Tracking" is removed and replaced by passive ability "Vehicle Tracking" from M-42 (Vehicles, hitted by M-42 45mm Anti-Tank Gun will be temporary visible for 10 seconds, even in the FOW.)
5. Global 7-th cons upgrade is locked until T4 deployed.

T-70:
1. Switchable rounds like M-42 have.
2. Fragmented rounds - lower ROF, bigger AOE, less damage.
3. AP rounds work as the current. AI decreased.

T4:
1. Cost changed from 240/90 to 160/50.
2. In T4 T-34/76 available. After T4 deployed SU-76 unlock passive ability "Improved AP rounds" (+20 damage). Global upgrade 7-th cons become available in T3. M4C sherman and t-34/85 available.
3. Upgrade "Guard army": 160/60 - Unlock Su-85, Katy and heavy tanks. Free unlock 7-th cons.
4. Katy cost -10 fuel to make it available slightly sooner.
5. Heavy armor get -10 fuel cost to make it available slightly sooner.

Its how it could be look. Main idea made T-34 available sooner and make from SU-76 dedicated anti-medium TD. It will help make power gap between T3 and T4 shorter, as 1-st crucial unit (T-34) available sooner.
SU-85 will become premium TD against heavy targets. SU-76 with 160 damage will be good against mediums, while early t-34 will help to defend it against enemy pushes and will provide field pressure.
Now if you go to T2 and T-70 you can get early T-34. While if you go to T1, your SU-76 have enough AT to defend you from enemy pushes, especially when T4 will be deployed. It also make T1 "AT issues" less heavy.
This tier design more flexible and easy to balance through cost. Early medium SU spam (if someone skip T-70 and make fast t-34) can be counter by pak walls (without katy killing team weapon not so easy), stugs, P4.

Some additional thoughts:
With that changes i think SU-85 could be convereted to anti-heavy armor TD like (It's just concept):
1. Damage from 160 to 200.
2. ROF decreased by 25%
3. Cost + 15 fuel +40MP
4. +90 hp

T-70 got 45 penetration.
It can't even scratch anything larger then Luchs and even Luchs takes ages to kill and its utterly roflstomped by puma.

Its PTRS on tracks in terms of AT.

But that's the thing: the largest thing around at that point in the game is the Luchs.
Throw the fact that the SU-76 doesn't counter the Puma on top of that, and you've got very little reason to slow your tech for it.

Once you get to the medium tank phase, you build the SU-85 instead. Given the choice between a dedicated tank destroyer that can deal with the whole enemy lineup and a dedicated tank destroyer that can't, why would you pick the SU-76?

But that's the thing: the largest thing around at that point in the game is the Luchs.
Throw the fact that the SU-76 doesn't counter the Puma on top of that, and you've got very little reason to slow your tech for it.

Once you get to the medium tank phase, you build the SU-85 instead. Given the choice between a dedicated tank destroyer that can deal with the whole enemy lineup and a dedicated tank destroyer that can't, why would you pick the SU-76?

Why would you ever pick SU-76 regardless of its state instead of 85 regardless of its state, when you can no longer combo call-in KV-1 with T3?

Giving barrage a cost instantly removed the unit from the meta, binding KV-1 to T4 was another blow.

That tells me to focus on barrage part of the unit, not AT part as its AT is sufficient.

Why would I EVER want to use SU-76 in situation where I didn't lost fuel for 10 minutes and can't build anything else at the time opponent got mediums?
SU-76 is fragile, expensive, micro heavy, little rewarding gimmick supplement unit and ALL of gimmicks it excelled at or was paired with were removed from the game.

The unit will never be alternative to SU-85 or ZiS when you are not being roflstomped, because it offers less AT and using it for accurate barrages is too risky closing in.

It doesn't have identity crisis, it doesn't have balance problem, it doesn't compete with SU-85, simply all friends it played with were forced to play with SU-85 instead with changes over the time.

For it to be used widely again or even be considered as a choice it would have to be more then weak-ass expensive ZiS-3 on tracks and I can't see that kind of rework happening to it.

For it to be used widely again or even be considered as a choice it would have to be more then weak-ass expensive ZiS-3 on tracks and I can't see that kind of rework happening to it.

Pretty much, yeah.

The unit's fine on paper, but there's no point in the game any more where there's not a better option.

Nobody'll get it as an artillery tractor when you can just use the ZiS you're probably building anyway.

There was little reason to use the unit with KV-1. KV-1 is able to win vs a PzIV.

On the other hand KV-8/Su-76 is a good combo.

Main battle tanks like the KV-1 should require tech, specialized vehicles like the KV-8 could return in being call-in or at least not requiring T4 with a few tweaks.

There was little reason to use the unit with KV-1. KV-1 is able to win vs a PzIV.

You've heard of Panthers and Tigers?

You've heard of Panthers and Tigers?

So in your opinion SU-76 can counter Panthers and Tigers. Ok I will keep it in mind.

to make su-76 different, i think we have to look at t70,su-76 and su-85 at the same time.

-T70 cannot be changed dramatically before it is either UP or OP, due to timing.
-SU-76 which is lacking a more defined role currently, not a bad tank for price, but timing is good for combined AT
-SU-85, the most desirable AT option, can SU-85 come later to make SU-76 more viable? or do people feel its absolutely vital the moment SU-85 comes out?

could SU-85 be given a moderately expensive upgrade that needs purchasing in the tank itself, to give it the vaunted vision mode? to make SU-76 come into its own role until the SU-85 reaches its full combat capacity?

or perhaps make it so that ONLY 1 SU-85 can be ''command SU-85'' and get the forward vision? so that it will make players less reliant on them?

It actually can if you have 2 of them and KV-1 spotting/tanking for them.

You'd be aware of it if you actually played the strats instead of just mashing 2 excel sheets together and drawing final conclusion from that.

Do you have a replay on that?

Would love to see how you pull that of.

Do you have a replay on that?

Would love to see how you pull that of.

Last time I've used it was still when KV-1 was call-in.

As already aforementioned, it got replaced by SU-85, because there is no reason for 76 when you have 85 already unlocked.

And yes, it did worked flawlessly when it made sense to do it.