M4A3 76mm Sherman V E8 Sherman

Since watching the 2v2 invitational tournament ad after seeing (and using) the M4A3 76mm Sherman in action, was quite disappointed with its overall performance against tanks and infantry.
I decided to have a quick look at its performance (ai and at) compared to the E8s and found it scarily similar in fact almost negligible difference in ai performance.

	76mm Sherman (USF)/M4C Sherman (soviet)	E8 Sherman
Cost	380mp/125 fuel	380mp/140 fuel
Movement	2.3/4.4(acc/dec) 6.5 max speed, 34 rotation	2.1/4 (acc/dec), 6.1 max speed, 32 rotation
Health/armor	640/160	720/215
Target size	21	21
Pop	12	14
Vet requirements	1820/3640/7280	1880/3760/7520

	76mm Sherman (USF)/M4C Sherman (Soviet)	E8 Sherman
Pen (near, mid, far)	Ap round: 120, 130, 140 Hvap: 160, 180, 220	155, 165, 200
Reload	Ap/hvap: 4.1-4.5/6.1	6-6.6
AOE	ap only:1,0.35, 0.05	1, 0.35, 0.05
AOE distance	0.5, 1, 1.5	0.5, 1, 1.5
AOE radius	2	2
Scatter angle	7.5	5
Scatter max	5	5.4
Scatter offset	76mm/M4C: 0.3/0.25	0.325
Turret rotation	35	35
Moving accuracy	0.75	0.75

Summery

The aoe of the main guns for both tanks lack considerably compared to other mediums as all other mediums have a higher aoe radius of 2.5 and have a higher AOE distance (except the Cromwell that has higher aoe instead of distance).

While many think the E8 is fine with the exception of its ai power and commander, I seriously don’t know what the 76mm Sherman is supposed to be. Its base ap rounds are almost no good for anything despite having a short reload which leaves the hvap that are really only good against mediums but it doesn’t have the Armor or health to go up against heavier tanks while maintaining a higher target size than other mediums where does it sit?

While I do think its ai (for both vehicles) need to have a small buff (at lease have the same aoe radius as other mediums, the ai is really poor), the 76mm Sherman would 100% benefit more if its vet 3 bonus was swapped out for vet 2, it needs that pen bonus before the reload bonus.

Thoughts?

Uh, the DPM on this thing is amazing.

76 is very good vs the most prevalent vehicle going up on the field vs USF right now: the Panzer 4.

The higher DPM and the bonuses from combined arms makes is a competent vehicle to reliability win vs the P4 on 1v1. With good ground firing control it can also be better than the Ez8 at anti infantry because of their shared AOE profile and the 76 having better reload.

If you're having trouble with its A.I performance try ground firing. People have been doing that it circumvent the Crummywell's piss poor anti infantry performance for year.

If you ask me the Ez8 probably need better aoe lol, the thing can't compete with the P4J in terms of aoe although miragefla already touched on that.

Plus it's in probably the best 1v1 USF doctrine atm? If you are in team games thou just don't buy it and get a Jackson?

Uh, the DPM on this thing is amazing.

76 is very good vs the most prevalent vehicle going up on the field vs USF right now: the Panzer 4.

The higher DPM and the bonuses from combined arms makes is a competent vehicle to reliability win vs the P4 on 1v1. With good ground firing control it can also be better than the Ez8 at anti infantry because of their shared AOE profile and the 76 having better reload.

If you're having trouble with its A.I performance try ground firing. People have been doing that it circumvent the Crummywell's piss poor anti infantry performance for year.

If you ask me the Ez8 probably need better aoe lol, the thing can't compete with the P4J in terms of aoe although miragefla already touched on that.

Plus it's in probably the best 1v1 USF doctrine atm? If you are in team games thou just don't buy it and get a Jackson?

Dont forget the soviet lend lease commander. Im well aware how good the mech commander is but why should I consider getting it when bulldozer blades on a regular sherman are far better in the long run?

The cromwells aoe is quite good (aoe is 1, 0.4, 0.2 and but shares the same aoe distance).

Also, Im really just suggesting a reshuffle of its vet because its clear its not suppose to be amazing against infantry. Literately its reload is all whats going for it.

As NorthFire said, main strength of the 76mm is the reload. Even if you're unlucky, it shoots in less than 5 seconds. An vet brings it down to less than about 3,5 (just tested it even because it sounds crazy. It's true though).

AoE wise they don't differ much. All share the same profile as the AP shell of the normal Sherman (which in turn are slightly worse than a P4), scatter areas are slightly larger though. So don't expect a miracle for each single shot.

We had some discussions already about giving them more distinct roles, but it was quite a while ago where the game had other issues. Maybe now is a better time to rethink these tanks.

The M4 76mm has the second highest rate of fire among all (non automatic) medium and heavy tanks, the first being the command panzer 4 (yeah the m10 has a faster reload but it also has a wind up and cooldown time which the M4 doesnt).

In fact, on average the M4(76) has 1.2 seconds faster reload than either panzer 4 variant, with superior penetration characteristics. This allows the M4(76) to stand its ground against tanks you would normally have a less than even chance against with a T-34/76 or M4a3.
The rate of fire more than makes up for its aoe deficiency against infantry.

The E8 is very cost efficient given its defensive characteristics, but while the M4(76) is a generalist with a slight emphasis on AT, the E8 seems to be more of an AT specialist with some AI capability. This means that while the M4(76) competes somewhat fairly against the M4a3, the E8 ends up competing role wise with the Jackson-a competition the E8 simply doesnt win, thus making the cost effectiveness a moot point.

Okay before anyone repeats about its rof AGAIN that im am well aware of. What does anyone think about switching vet 2 with vet 3?

Okay before anyone repeats about its rof AGAIN that im am well aware of. What does anyone think about switching vet 2 with vet 3?

I think the noteworthy characteristics at vet 3 is the penetration increase. I feel shifting that penetration bonus to vet 2 will allow the M4(160 long range pen) to bully Panzer 4s a bit too early.

I think the noteworthy characteristics at vet 3 is the penetration increase. I feel shifting that penetration bonus to vet 2 will allow the M4(160 long range pen) to bully Panzer 4s a bit too early.

My title is abit misleading now that im thinking about it.

Prehaps I had bad rng rolls with the 76mm but i just dont understand its unusual tank to infantry performance.

The 76mm M4 is absolutely amazing. It does not need buffs.

Don't know about 76mm but E8 is useless. It's in a useless commander and it's AI power is laughable and you can't field them vs Panthers, only P4s and if you do field them vs P4s, you're better off getting Jacksons because of panthers and heavies. I completely gave up on E8 when I had a pack of 3 E8s vs solo, out-of-place Panther, on close/medium range and E8s bounced around 6 shots out of 9 or 10 on Panther, while a constantly moving Panther almost took out my E8.

Basically to field them vs P4s is an overkill and late game blunder and to field them vs infantry is complete BS. Jacksons and combined arms >> E8 and combined arms.

There is no point to pick a lackluster commander only to get a good but identity-missing E8.

First I would like to congratulate the op for doing his homework and providing good information with his post.

Now I would like to point out something you seem to have missed.

1) Pintle Mg
76mm mg is far superior to most pintle mg

2) Radio net
Radio net bonus includes ROF and the 76mm get incredulous ROF with the bonus

To make things even worse (as far as I can remember and since I can not test now) the Radio net work with most vehicles for 76mm and only for specific ones for Easy8.

Both unit are cost efficient.

As for penetration/ROF change I suspect that the change would actually be a nerf since it would help in less cases.

Don't know about 76mm but E8 is useless. It's in a useless commander and it's AI power is laughable and you can't field them vs Panthers, only P4s and if you do field them vs P4s, you're better off getting Jacksons because of panthers and heavies. I completely gave up on E8 when I had a pack of 3 E8s vs solo, out-of-place Panther, on close/medium range and E8s bounced around 6 shots out of 9 or 10 on Panther, while a constantly moving Panther almost took out my E8.

Basically to field them vs P4s is an overkill and late game blunder and to field them vs infantry is complete BS. Jacksons and combined arms >> E8 and combined arms.

There is no point to pick a lackluster commander only to get a good but identity-missing E8.

I think what i find interesting the most between the E8 and 76mm is just how impactful the fire rate is.

Think of it for a sec, without the 76mm fire rate and the commander in mind, the Ai of both tanks is near the same while the E8 being better stat wise for 15 more fuel but the 76mm just feels right.

Idk I think they both have an identity crises but the E8 is more apparent because of the commander hes in and its long reload.

Mayby more can be discussed why the 76mm works while the E8 dosnt.

1) Pintle Mg
76mm mg is far superior to most pintle mg

....

To make things even worse (as far as I can remember and since I can not test now) the Radio net work with most vehicles for 76mm and only for specific ones for Easy8.

I wouldn't say the M4(76) pintle is "FAR" superior to most, but it is definitely better than most.


Also this thing about the radio nets being different is news to me. Not saying I doubt you, but is there more specific information you can give about this?

Imo most of the doctrinal USF tanks are very similar. If it were up to me I would:

Bulldozer Sherman (medium Brawler)
Make it a separate unit (no more upgrade)
Change its name to to M4A3(W) bulldozer and give it 960hp (wet ammo justifies higher HP)
Remove HE shells
Idea: medium tank brawler, like the KV1

76mm Sherman (premium medium)
Idea: just a better, but more expensive Sherman, like the T34/85

M4A3E8 (AT brawler)
Renamed to M4A3E8(W) and increased HP to 800
Reload reduced to match the panther
Increased near penetration
Main gun AOE removed
Idea: Make it so the Easy eight can 1v1 the panther, where the Easy eight wins of it can get close while the panther wins at range

Imo most of the doctrinal USF tanks are very similar. If it were up to me I would:

Bulldozer Sherman (medium Brawler)
Make it a separate unit (no more upgrade)
Change its name to to M4A3(W) bulldozer and give it 960hp (wet ammo justifies higher HP)
Remove HE shells
Idea: medium tank brawler, like the KV1

76mm Sherman (premium medium)
Idea: just a better, but more expensive Sherman, like the T34/85

M4A3E8 (AT brawler)
Renamed to M4A3E8(W) and increased HP to 800
Reload reduced to match the panther
Increased near penetration
Main gun AOE removed
Idea: Make it so the Easy eight can 1v1 the panther, where the Easy eight wins of it can get close while the panther wins at range

E8 would still be useless as there would be no point in going for an AT gun next to Jackson. E8 in no universe can take on a Panther 1v1, no matter what range. Don't know about the bulldozer change since I don't play dozer much but E8 from my experience should get a slight increase in AOE to match closer to stock mediums and be a doctrinal premium jack of all trades which loses to Panther but can be useful when massed and preserved to reliably take on armour. With a corresponding price increase.

Right now E8 can take on P4s and that's it. Even en masse it has troubles vs Panther due to 165 or 200 penetration vs 270 Panther armour (61% and 74% chance of penetrating combine with 960 HP = costly engagement but no dead panther). You'd think that it would be useful vs infantry but it's not. Only thing I find it good for is the run n gun medium tank hunt (HVSS suspension).

Even if you know you will be facing P4 rush, E8 is in a such a terrible commander that it's just sad. Echelon flame upgrade negates the double zook for mediums and kills the range on zook since the range of flamethrower is low (they always get as close so that each squad member is in range) and if you're force to put zooks on rifles, you lose a lot of AI firepower which E8 won't replace.
The combined arms is also a double edged sword since unless you are a micro-God, the 125 muni combined arms can cost you dearly vs Stukas and Werfers.
Rifles sandbags + mines are good only for the mines on chokes and the expensive (I think 120 muni) phosphorous smoke is good only for clearing out a building or one MG position. Good tank with identity crisis put in a terrible commander.


This is just my view of the E8. USF is a good faction but this one commander is just terrible.

The E8 should be somewhere between a T34/85 and Comet. Mirage’s mod found a superb balance that makes the E8 useful without infringing on Jackson/Sherman AI territory.

Sadly, the live version is pretty lackluster. An infantry squad can just sit in front of it without too much worry, and it’s AT Isn’t good enough to make it a viable choice compared to the Jackson.

Don't know about 76mm but E8 is useless. It's in a useless commander and it's AI power is laughable and you can't field them vs Panthers, only P4s and if you do field them vs P4s, you're better off getting Jacksons because of panthers and heavies. I completely gave up on E8 when I had a pack of 3 E8s vs solo, out-of-place Panther, on close/medium range and E8s bounced around 6 shots out of 9 or 10 on Panther, while a constantly moving Panther almost took out my E8.

Basically to field them vs P4s is an overkill and late game blunder and to field them vs infantry is complete BS. Jacksons and combined arms >> E8 and combined arms.

There is no point to pick a lackluster commander only to get a good but identity-missing E8.

Surprisingly, I was almost the same. My 2 E8s couldn't penetrate the panther from medium range. bounced over and over. My mate had to help me with his m10 Wolverines.

The problem with the E8 is two fold. Firstly. It's an AT tank. No at tank will ever really be attractive for usf because of the Jackson. Why get an AT tank to brawl when you have the Jackson that makes it no contest? Why would you pick a doctrine for a unit you wouldn't pick if it was stock? Seriously you slap any and every single allied AT vehicle in the game into usf major building and not a single one would ever get built because you have the Jackson

Second- the Panther. The Panther was supposed to be an escalation of tech vehicle. When your p4 was out matched by volume you aim for a Panther whuch could take the extra punch and dish it back. But panthers are a dime a dozen and easier to get than ever. This leaves Sherman AT variants, even if you ever would want to get a non Jackson AT vehicle, or obsolete.

If the Jackson perhaps wasn't designed to counter every size of armour and instead just heavy Armour LIKE panthers, you may see the occasional E8, 76mm, m10 but until that day, which will never come, half of the usf call in armour's only job is to reduce the number of doctrinal abilities in their respective commanders.

The problem with the E8 is two fold. Firstly. It's an AT tank. No at tank will ever really be attractive for usf because of the Jackson. Why get an AT tank to brawl when you have the Jackson that makes it no contest? Why would you pick a doctrine for a unit you wouldn't pick if it was stock? Seriously you slap any and every single allied AT vehicle in the game into usf major building and not a single one would ever get built because you have the Jackson

Second- the Panther. The Panther was supposed to be an escalation of tech vehicle. When your p4 was out matched by volume you aim for a Panther whuch could take the extra punch and dish it back. But panthers are a dime a dozen and easier to get than ever. This leaves Sherman AT variants, even if you ever would want to get a non Jackson AT vehicle, or obsolete.

If the Jackson perhaps wasn't designed to counter every size of armour and instead just heavy Armour LIKE panthers, you may see the occasional E8, 76mm, m10 but until that day, which will never come, half of the usf call in armour's only job is to reduce the number of doctrinal abilities in their respective commanders.

LOL. E8 AT tank? m10 wovlerine has better penetration, light tank destroyer better then E8.

a little buff AI power from MGs for E8 would be cool

a little lower penetration from M4/76W the normal shell one that shoot fast as f*** after vet.2
so the HVAP can get some use.