AVRE vs SturmTiger

Ullu,

I leave you to it. The stochastic decision of you missing out everything that you wrote and missing all that other people have written is not pragmatic to keep on quoting you. You may go ahead and use the units as you deem best even despite evidently not their best-use cases.

There was no ill intent in our discussion from my side, but you are viewing a pleasant communication exchange as an effort of attempted trolling.

Ullu,

I leave you to it. The stochastic decision of you missing out everything that you wrote and missing all that other people have written is not pragmatic to keep on quoting you. You may go ahead and use the units as you deem best even if it's evidently not the case.

I like how u tried to troll me...find no quotes from me to prove your trolling and go away with this now.

ST is bad in so many way compared to AVRE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftPqr1T1YC4&t=2578s

I like how u tried to troll me...find no quotes from me to prove your trolling and go away with this now.

ST is bad in so many way compared to AVRE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftPqr1T1YC4&t=2578s

Normally I'd argue that this is just an example of bad rng. However this is actually basically my experience when using and the few times since it's neutering that I have seen the ST. it'll clip this or that and even a squad hit on a beat up unit won't result in a wipe.

Sturmtiger is THE unit to give OKW some kind of middle-range mobile arty, a mobile weak B4 howitzer. It shot rockets with 5.650 m range, while Avre had around 100 m. Nerf it a little bit and give it 90 range.

Also, Avre it little bit too strong.

AVRE is alot better than the Sturmtiger, not even close.

Nerf the AVRE into the ground, one-shot units like this should be a meme and not viable options imo

Sturmtiger is THE unit to give OKW some kind of middle-range mobile arty, a mobile weak B4 howitzer. It shot rockets with 5.650 m range, while Avre had around 100 m. Nerf it a little bit and give it 90 range.

Also, Avre it little bit too strong.

90 range? Don't take this the wrong way here.... But are you high? That would be beyond crazy and beyond balance.

90 range? Don't take this the wrong way here.... But are you high? That would be beyond crazy and beyond balance.

hmm...why excatly?

seen u my youtube link? this ST cant even kill a mg with low HP and 3 model left when the rocket hit the mg crew on top of the heads. While a B4 can bring a KT very low with one shell

why would be op? there are commanders with prists/ sextons and b4 in the game...which are cheaper and u even can spam them! why would a st with 90 range op??

hmm...why excatly?

seen u my youtube link? this ST cant even kill a mg with low HP and 3 model left when the rocket hit the mg crew on top of the heads. While a B4 can bring a KT very low with one shell

why would be op? there are commanders with prists/ sextons and b4 in the game...which are cheaper and u even can spam them! why would a st with 90 range op??

Because 90 range is seriously huge. I'd sooner it work properly than be a wet noodle from significantly further away. And unless you plan on making the ST completely immobile and susceptible to all manner of off map and on map strikes I'd personally let that comparison drop.

I totally couldn't see why a 90 range armored, high health nuke launcher would be problematic... Nooo not at all. It would be JUST like the sexton that could be killed by a 222 or puma flank and absolutely. See this is why nobody takes you seriously....

Because 90 range is seriously huge. I'd sooner it work properly than be a wet noodle from significantly further away. And unless you plan on making the ST completely immobile and susceptible to all manner of off map and on map strikes I'd personally let that comparison drop.

I totally couldn't see why a 90 range armored, high health nuke launcher would be problematic... Nooo not at all. It would be JUST like the sexton that could be killed by a 222 or puma flank and absolutely. See this is why nobody takes you seriously....

there is room for modifications:

- ST needs a setup time and need to stay 10sec after a shot
- give it a B4 rng aiming

once more:
- St is not spamable like b4 or other mobile arti like priests and sextons
- st hit and destroy shit often..like u seen in my vid link
- its really expansive for the comparison

there is room for modifications:

- ST needs a setup time and need to stay 10sec after a shot
- give it a B4 rng aiming

once more:
- St is not spamable like b4 or other mobile arti like priests and sextons
- st hit and destroy shit often..like u seen in my vid link
- its really expansive for the comparison

While mobile arty like the Sexton is not unproblematic, they at least get penned by diving tanks. B4 is static and susceptible to offmaps and normal arty after being spotted.

Your version of the ST (even with your two suggestions) would combine mobility and high armor, so it would neither be targetable by offmaps nor dives. Yes, you could work around this with further nerfs to armor, health, delays, forced setups etc.

But after all it would make a cheesy unit that does not fit into the current state of the game even more cheesier. And on top cause a huge ton of work for basically no gain.
The AVRE and ST just fell prey to a new game design, and I doubt that they are really reworkable at all just like the B4.

Since at least from the stats the ST seems to be worse than the AVRE, maybe it could do with an ability to call in off map smoke, so it could cover it's advances/retreats/flanks. Otherwise these units are probably not worth the effort that it would cost to make them really fit in.

90 range? Don't take this the wrong way here.... But are you high? That would be beyond crazy and beyond balance.

120mm has 100 range. Make Sturmtiger a late-game weapon, a simply troll vehicle. Give it longer reload and worse acc. at longrange.

Don't see where it should be more OP than B4 or other mobile Arty.

I totally couldn't see why a 90 range armored, high health nuke launcher would be problematic... Nooo not at all. It would be JUST like the sexton that could be killed by a 222 or puma flank and absolutely. See this is why nobody takes you seriously....

So also ISU is OP as fu*k? Way higher fire-rate, and also long-range.

A long-range Sturmtiger would be like a call-in ability, which can be destroyed.

Since at least from the stats the ST seems to be worse than the AVRE, maybe it could do with an ability to call in off map smoke, so it could cover it's advances/retreats/flanks. Otherwise these units are probably not worth the effort that it would cost to make them really fit in.

How about we stop covering shittness with abilitites and just make its AOE better? Or why AVRE was never nerfed to sturmtiger level?

Your version of the ST (even with your two suggestions) would combine mobility and high armor, so it would neither be targetable by offmaps nor dives.

Like caliope

After some fails of me trying to use the SturmTiger, I am also on the side that it could do with a light buff to its AoE and front armor. And make it at least match the explosion visuals with the damage that it does. Everything else seems OK; but I'm generally bad at playing OKW.

How about we stop covering shittness with abilitites and just make it AOE better? Or why AVRE was never nerfed to sturmtiger level?

Well this depends. The AoE data as you presented it in the opening post does not tell you that much in direct comparison since also the damage is very different between the units. If my/MMX's data is correct, then the AoE profiles look like this:


OHK radius:
ST: ~6,47
AVRE:~ 7,18

Most important thing is though that the curves above 80 HP don't matter unless you're shooting at tanks.

So the AVRE has a better performance between 6,5 and 8 meters approximately, but the ST has a huge AoE max value. You can't say that the ST/AVRE is straight out better regarding offensive capability than the other one.
The main difference is casemate/turret, health and armor, so all factors that determine survivability for these units. And since the ST seems to draw the short end of the stick in most regards (especially when looking at its armor and the high pen of Allied TDs), I suggested a survivability buff that also needs micro to use correctly. Frontal Armor might be a second option, but I also think that at least the rear armor of the AVRE should go down to 150 if not even less to allow mediums to pen it better from the side.

Like caliope

There's some truth in this though. In my eyes Calliope could do with 320 HP to make it somewhat more divable. But that's just my opinion

And make it at least match the explosion visuals with the damage that it does.

Fan fact is - while exposion radius is 14, maximal distance is 8. Considering already insanly bad long range damage of 0.075, damage past 8 range is almost non existant.

This means that it has pretty much the same exposition radius as AVRE vs inf, with the only difference that it will give a small suppresion effect past 8 range almost without dealing damage.

But I might be wrong here, judging by AOE curve.

More or less, I see 2 main options + an Avre nerf.

a. buff Sturmtiger's frontal armor (soft change)

or

b. make Sturmtiger be a middle-range heavy mobile Arty (like it was designed for) way longer reload time, worse acc., min range 20 to 60-90 max range.

You shouldnt forget that squad formations are usually spread out, this 2 range is actually what makes a huge difference.

Also you sure that AOE damage past maximum range is not decreasing?

You shouldnt forget that squad formations are usually spread out, this 2 range is actually what makes a huge difference.

I agree on that, also that (at least Gren and Volks) formations seems to be slightly tighter than Riflemen and Conscripts, although I do not have any real data on that, just what I saw from my AoE simulations.

Still, ST gets 6 additional meters of max AoE which does 43,75 damage and therefore kills every model that is half health. As I said, it is hard to tell which unit is better just looking at the values alone, but saying that the ST's AoE profile would be straight up worse than the one of the AVRE is plainly wrong.

While mobile arty like the Sexton is not unproblematic, they at least get penned by diving tanks. B4 is static and susceptible to offmaps and normal arty after being spotted.

Your version of the ST (even with your two suggestions) would combine mobility and high armor, so it would neither be targetable by offmaps nor dives. Yes, you could work around this with further nerfs to armor, health, delays, forced setups etc.

But after all it would make a cheesy unit that does not fit into the current state of the game even more cheesier. And on top cause a huge ton of work for basically no gain.
The AVRE and ST just fell prey to a new game design, and I doubt that they are really reworkable at all just like the B4.

Since at least from the stats the ST seems to be worse than the AVRE, maybe it could do with an ability to call in off map smoke, so it could cover it's advances/retreats/flanks. Otherwise these units are probably not worth the effort that it would cost to make them really fit in.

once again:

a player which spam B4 or mobile arty is more problematic in balance and BS cancer than one Sturmtiger which could shot every 1min above 90 range. 3 - 4 B4 or priests are more bs and cancer than one ST. and caliope is what u describe there...and even this unit can be spamed into popcap! Why is ok for allies to have such units...while it would be OP and cheesy for axis? Why?