Proposed Sturmpio changes

Here are the proposed changes to Sturmpioneers:

Some quality changes to Sturmpioneers to make their abilities (including the med crates) easier to use and to make their anti-tank package more viable to increase strategic diversity.
Buff 1)Concussive Grenade cost from 30 munitions to 20 munitions to standardize cost with other similar grenades
Buff 2)Cost of Panzerschreck upgrade from 70 munitions to 60 munitions
BG/Mech HQ now unlocks access to a second Panzerschreck (additional 60 munitions)
Buff 3)Medical Supplies cost from 45 to 30, now drops 2 med crates instead of 3. Cooldown removed.
Assault Package (Feuersturm)
The flamethrower upgrade for Sturmpioneers is a very good upgrade, but it leaves OKW painfully vulnerable to enemy mines because they can’t easily get a second engineer squad for minesweeping due to the high squad cost. Making the minesweeper upgrade available alongside the flamethrower upgrade should make this doctrinal choice more viable.
Buff 4Flamethrower upgrade for Sturmpioneers no longer mutually exclusive with minesweeper (can now upgrade both)
ve with minesweeper (can now upgrade both)

IMO, this is a terrible balance proposal. It's a straight up 4x buff to what is already the strongest starting unit. The unit keeps getting buffs because of its high cost that it has reached comic proportions. Many people on this forum keep justifying the high cost of USF rifles because of their "potential", yet a lot of those same people think the above is a good idea.

I understand not wanting to get a second Sturmpio when playing Feuerstorm, but more buffs are the last thing this unit needs.

I'm guessing the buff to Rifles was needed because Sturmpios would roll over them at the start, but the solution to this might have been better to give a nerf to Sturmpios and adjust price accordingly. Leaving Stumpios alone and buffing rifles changed a lot of other balances that I hadn't seen people complain about.

I'd propose matching the stats to the same as UKF sappers, having the sweeper and shrek upgrade stock, and keeping the sweeper and flamethrower upgrade mutually exclusive. Also, lower the cost and pop cap to match the new performance.

(Please don't take this as an insult, in general, I like the job that the balance team has been doing and am glad they are doing it. It's a much better balanced game now than it was a few years ago. I just think this part of the proposal would be extremely problematic.)

Added "quote" box by ShadowLinkX37 for clarity. Feel free to change it Effen if I've misinterpreted what you're saying.

Why are even Sturmpionners the starting unit?

Allied faction received buff after buff because OKW start was oppressive while keeping SP as the starting unit.

Just make minesweeper not lock out Flamethrowe or schreck

I'd propose matching the stats to the same as UKF sappers, having the sweeper and shrek upgrade stock, and keeping the sweeper and flamethrower upgrade mutually exclusive. Also, lower the cost and pop cap to match the new performance.

Giganerfing OKW early game seems like the worst possible balance change possible at the moment. I am not sure how you think this is a good change?

I don't fully agree with what OP is saying. I can see how it does look like a lot of buffs for the already best starting unit, but the buffs are to the undertuned portions of the unit. For example the panzerschreck is laughable currently when it's the only AT source.

I do disagree with the concussive grenade buff. I've played against them a lot recently and I find them very potent. Although I do find them to be rather hit or miss. You have to keep at least 3 models alive when hitting your opponent with them or you'll end up just retreating regardless. I don't want to see it used as a spam grenade every engagement. I think 25 munitions would be a good between for it.

Buffs 2 and 3 are pretty tame. Yeah the 2nd panzerschreck is an additional tool, but the single is poor as I've stated previously. The medical supplies is just to allow for mechanized to be more med friendly since OKW still suffers from tech split.

I think the flamer buff is actually a good buff to the sturm, since it'll allow the unit to actually fight upgraded units lategame like 2x BAR rifles. That's the primary issue with sturms, they're fantastic for 6-7 minutes then they just get tasked with so many different jobs and don't have the munition sinks to upgrade themselves which leads to them being outclassed. It would make firestorm more attractive which would be nice. Be nice to not see G43s pfusi's and IR StG obers every game.

Which OKW player was it that hurt you?

These changes are a massive nerf that I'm not sure OKW warrants.

i agree with vipper here. swap sturms with volks. sturms could get a wee target size buff to warrant their new slightly later timing (which would help with scaling)
slightly less oppressive to balance with not being a starting unit and then slightly more effective as a result.

+1 to removing sturms from the starting role. Then you can buff them so much more

The decision for them to be the starting unit was always terrible. I've never understood it at all. Not only do Eastern factions have MUCH worse starters, they also have to build a building at some point

Faction diversity is one thing, but having sturms be that strong in the first place is different enough. Buff them and stop giving out a free one every game

i agree with vipper here. swap sturms with volks. sturms could get a wee target size buff to warrant their new slightly later timing (which would help with scaling)
slightly less oppressive to balance with not being a starting unit and then slightly more effective as a result.

This would be okay. If the Sturm wasn't the starting unit then some buffs to it wouldn't upset balance too much.
I still would rather have a Sturm that was 220mp and 6 pop cap, and was still better than any of the other starting engineers. The biggest reason for that is that when I play 4v4's, it sucks losing a Sturm to indirect while repairing, and then having to buy a 300mp Sturm late game to repair trucks.

Strums are great starting unit and work well all game. No change is required.

Yeah the 2nd panzerschreck is an additional tool, but the single is poor as I've stated previously.

Single shrek was meant to be poor. It is like saying Penal AT package is poor, well that the purpose.

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Single shrek was meant to be poor. It is like saying Penal AT package is poor, well that the purpose.

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except penals get the highest damage snare in the game with it...

Sturms were a controversial design from the start of the game. Too potent early and useless lategame (due to high cost). Very difficult to balance. The key problem imo: Lategame you need a unit to sit behind your lines and repair plus sweep for mines. You might also need sth cheap to sidecap (1v1 mainly). 300 manpower to do just that cripples OKW manpower economy. USF will have the same for zero cost (crews) or 200mp (echelon). Soviets will have CEs which are only 170manpower. Brits will get 5 men units for as little as 210manpower. After losing a repair/sweeping squad, repurchasing it for OKW will cost them too much. Also the bleed from reinforcing them is much higher.

Solution: I would just leave them alone. I would add a pio (ost) squad to be purchased from the HQ when all trucks are set up. It could be a five model version. I feel it would be the easiest and the least balance problematic solution (especially early game balance problems that nerfed sturms would bring about).

I dont think the proposed changes are problematic at all.

I do agree that having a 300mp unit that needs to perform close combat duty, sweep, repair vehicles/structures, lay mines/wire, potentially provide anti tank duty, give healing and doctrinally clear garrisons is extremely taxing for a single or even 2 squads.

I see two potential ways of helping the situation:
Either offload the utility on other units, for example-give volks an optional sweeper package that locks out other upgrades

Or make them cheaper and less potent

I dont think the proposed changes are problematic at all.

I do agree that having a 300mp unit that needs to perform close combat duty, sweep, repair vehicles/structures, lay mines/wire, potentially provide anti tank duty, give healing and doctrinally clear garrisons is extremely taxing for a single or even 2 squads.

I see two potential ways of helping the situation:
Either offload the utility on other units, for example-give volks an optional sweeper package that locks out other upgrades

Or make them cheaper and less potent

Yep. That is pretty much a correct diagnosis. The solutions are also sensible. My worry is that if one starts toying with early game power of sturms, the consequences might be largely difficult to predict.

The idea of giving a sweeper to volks is actually quite good. They would lose one fighting model and other upgrades. Makes sense. I would even consider actually upgrading volks to some repair unit after some tech.

Still, I feel that just building an ost 5 men pio from hq after all battletrucks are set up would be an easier option. It would also not exclude all the proposed changes by Sander. They could be added anyway.

I don't mind it.

OKW needs a highly mobile non-doc schreck unit, and Strums are good for that. Like the Flame/Sweep non lockout as well.

I don't mind it.

OKW needs a highly mobile non-doc schreck unit, and Strums are good for that. Like the Flame/Sweep non lockout as well.

Yes. All true.

They also need around 200mp repair/sweeper squad. Not 300mp/30reinforce power-squad or nothing.

except penals get the highest damage snare in the game with it...

Lol ok, if that's the level of debate you're proposing, forget it.

They can just gave STGs as an upgrade for 45-60 muni and MP could price be droped to be 260-270. With first squad starting with StG already upgraded, just like it is now.

Considering how squishy SPs are, and that they usually are hardly usable in combat, past early game. At least ambushes are possible with them early, but later they will be mostly wiped on retreat trying to get into close\mid range, so they are more of volks support to bust close\mid damage if someone is getting close to you.

Most likely noone would want to get SPs in later stages of the game for combat pupreses, meaning that 300MP cost and default STGs are honesly kinda wasted.

Highly radical suggestion:

- start with 4X Mp40, perform similiar to 4-man assgrens
- STG44's available once panzer authorisation is complete, upgrade costs 60 muni and locks out all weapon slots & upgrades
- Cost from 300 to 260
- Stun grenade from 30 to 25
- Minesweeper can be combined with either the flamethrower or panzerschreck, but remove its ability to be put away
- Still can't have both flamethrower & Panzerschreck, you'll need to buy 2 squads for that
- Maybe an RA buff? Not sure what the current numbers are.