Sander's personal balance changes

Thoughts on V4

Rocket Artillery
In order to make rocket artillery more of a strategic weapon, to be used in conjunction with an active assault or defence rather than just bombarding the enemy as much as possible, all veterancy cooldown bonuses will be reduced.

• All veterancy cooldown bonuses reduced to a total of ~20% (compared to up to 40% previously)
  
• Stuka vet 1 cooldown bonus removed. Vet 2 bonus reduced from -30% to -20%
  
• Katyusha vet 2 cooldown bonus reduced from -40% to -20%
  
• Panzerwerver vet 2 cooldown bonus reduced from -40% to -20%
  
• Calliope vet 1 cooldown bonus from 9% to 11%; vet 3 (third) cooldown bonus removed (total cooldown will be -20%)
  
• Land Mattress will be addressed below along with other changes to it

If the maximum potential of rocket artillery gets reduced - which I agree is far too high - a slight reduction in veterancy requirements of like 10%~ would be in order. It can be hard to justify rocket arty in 1v1 games where pop is more restrictive and targets less abundant if the pay-off at vet 2 isn't as big.

Panzerschreck
In order to make Panzerschrecks a more viable option against light vehicles, its far accuracy is being increased. As compensation, its damage is being reduced. This will make the alpha strike potential against vehicles slightly worse (decreasing the effectiveness of “Schreck blobs”), while the higher accuracy should keep the total damage per minute roughly similar.

• Damage from 120 to 100
  
• Accuracy from 0.069/0.052/0.028 to 0.069/0.052/0.036 (for example chance to hit a T-70 at long range goes from 50% to 65%)

This still feels like a nerf with too little compensation. Double schreck volley + AT gun shot wouldn't kill a light vehicle anymore, nor would a single schreck volley + 2 AT guns shots. So the synergy between schrecks and AT guns would be far worse.

In my opinion the Schreck units should be looked at individually:

Panzergrenadiers:
Schrecks would be good on them, but their V-formation fucks them over. It's always the 2 models at the rear of their V-formation that hold the Schrecks, which means you have up to 5 less range compared to other AT squads, making them feel less accurate and easier to kite than their counterparts. They should get a regular squad formation, but as compensation have both their RA bonusses moved to vet 2 again instead of split between vet 1 and 2 (as it would also buff unupgraded Panzergrenadiers).

Stormtroopers:
With this squad, it's the most forward model that holds the schreck, which combined with the commando camouflage actually makes them an underrated soft AT unit. They can also still quite reliably beat mainlines 1 on 1, altough you can forget about wiping anything with them. Their vehicle detection ability is overpriced at 30 munitions, compared to 15 munitions that AT conscripts and AT sections pay for the same ability, which should be adjusted.

Sturmpioneers:
If the Schreck wasn't mutually exclusive with the sweeper, it would become a no-brainer in the midgame, which I really dislike. I'd rather see the pop requirement of Sturms lowered from 8 to 7, so getting double Sturms would only take up 14 pop instead of 16. Maybe also give schreck Sturms the ability to lay Rear Echelon mines as a muni efficient way to slow down enemy tanks.

Panzerfusiliers:
Well balanced. Large squad size and cheap manpower cost makes them an excellent vessel for Schrecks.

M3/M5 Halftrack (all faction variants)
The M3 and M5 halftracks are given more utility with a healing option. M5 quad AA power is being reduced to become more in line with other similar units.

• All unupgraded halftracks can now drop a single med crate for 15 munitions
  
• Quad upgrade AA power reduced (values to be determined later)

Being able to delay the medic upgrade with the M3 - which you're gonna get anyway with T1 Soviets - would have a significant impact on balance. It would be a great addition to the M5 though. I'd rather see the M3 be allowed to cap points without a squad inside once it reaches vet 2, so it stays useful in the mid/late game as sidecapping unit. USF's Assault M3 (from mechanized) should also be changed to only drop 1 crate instead of 3 crates.

Battlegroup HQ
In order to make it easier for OKW to back tech to medics and indirect fire, and give OKW access to support weapons (HMG and ISG) faster to increase build diversity and strengthen their early game options, the Battlegroup HQ's reinforcement and healing options are being switched around, and the HQ is being split into two parts.

• Cost from 200mp/25fu to 100mp/5fu
  
• Now automatically comes with medic upgrade. Reinforcement deactivated
  
• Unlocks ISG (and access to the HMG 34 from T0)
  
• Motorized Support upgrade added. Cost 100mp/20fu. Unlocks Uhu and 251/17
  
• Medics upgrade replaced by Forward Operating Base upgrade. Costs 200mp/10fu. Unlocks reinforcement and access to the Forward Retreat Point
  
• FRP still requires T4 teched to activate; T4 requires activation of the Motorized Support Upgrade

I preferred the way you balanced it in V2.

Veteran Squad Leader (German Infantry)

• -10% received accuracy modifier removed

Just thinking aloud, I think it might actually be better to remove their G43 instead of the RA bonus. It would promote using 5 men Grens as your really sturdy mainlines with free healing while mixing in 1 to 2 LMG Grens inbetween for dps. Currently the G43 makes them too blob friendly, making them better at short/mid range, better at chasing and better at retaining dps. Removing their G43 would also mean less overlap in role of VSL Grens with G43 Grens.

Jaeger Light Infantry upgrade (G43 Grenadiers)

• CP requirement from 2 to 1
  
• Now gives a total of 3 G43s to Grenadiers
  
• Now takes 1 weapon slot
  
• Cost from 45 munitions to 60
  
• Reduced moving accuracy of Gren G43 so that now three rifles have the same total moving DPS as two rifles had previously.
  
• In light of Grenadier G43 changes, Jaeger Command Squad will now receive 2x PGren G43 instead of 3x Gren G43 to let them keep their firepower advantage over a regular Grenadier squad

While I agree the current G43 Grenadiers are lackluster, the upgrade is also in 3 doctrines that are really strong already, so you risk making the next terminator blob unit, especially cause 2 of those G43 doctrines have sprint. I'd keep the buff more modest by just adding a -10% RA bonus and increasing upgrade cost from 45 to 50 munitions.

This would also be a good opportunity to rework interrogation, which is a really good ability, but hard to use and unreliable:
- Cost from 0 to 25 munitions (low cause it's hard to time).
- Map reveal duration from 10 to 15 seconds.
- Ability range increased from 0 to 10 (squad interrogates crawler at a distance instead of point blank)
- The ability now activates immediately instead of taking 5 seconds (so crawler crawling away or dying
doesn't prevent the ability from activating).

Panzer Tactician
Panzer Tactician is too easy to use because it deploys smoke instantly. By adding a delay, it will become slightly less powerful.

• Now has a 0.5s delay before deploying

This should be the same for all similar smoke abilities, especially because it can be timed to make snares (that are not AT nades) unable to target the vehicle inside the smoke.

Penals
In order to make Penals builds slightly more attractive compared to Conscripts builds, their build and reinforcement times are being adjusted.

• Build time from 32 to 27; reinforce time from 5.4 to 4.5 accordingly

They could also do with a slight 2mp reinforcement cost reduction, because their accuracy-focused veterancy, inability to make sandbags and large squad size makes them prone to bleed.

Infantry Sections
Changing the squad’s formation should hopefully have the effect of slightly nerfing Infantry Sections when attacking / out of cover, because they are more likely to drop a model faster (most forward model gets focussed), while keeping their defensive performance (in cover) the same.

• Cost from 270 back to 280
  
• Squad formation from regular shape to V-shape

The V-formation is dumb, I wouldn't want to see it added to more squads. Instead of a cost increase and formation change, I'd only remove their arbritary 25% capping bonus, which hypercharges AEC timing. The buildtime increase on their sandbags would already limit their effectiveness enough, as Sections are the most green cover dependant after Conscripts.

AEC
Changing the damage model on the AEC will increase its shots-to-kill (STK) against the most vulnerable 320 hitpoints light vehicles (the 222, the 251, the 221/223 and the the 251/17) by one shot, making the AEC a bit less powerful against them, without changing the STK against the bigger light vehicles with 400 hitpoints (like the Puma or the Luchs). A weapon damage bonus at vet 3 should make it more useful in the later stages of the match to better reward players who keep their unit alive, as the AEC currently somewhat lacks late game scaling.

• Damage from 120 to 100
  
• Vet 3 now gives +60 damage (160 total)

Stun shot should also be looked at, immobilizing a tank for 8 seconds at 50 range with the 2nd shot is far too powerful. It should only be a slowdown. Maybe the 2nd shot could debuff the reload time on the enemy vehicle instead. Same holds true for UKF Sniper's Critical Shot and Puma's Aimed Shot against turretless vehicles, which should both only slow down speed and rotation instead of immobilize.

Valentine Mk IX
The Valentine will now have to be built rather than being instantly called in.

• Now needs to be built in HQ. Build time 60 seconds

60 seconds is too long on top of 5 CP for the initial Valentine, 30 seconds should be enough to let the Axis opponent recover if the UKF player decides to yolo his Valentine and panic call-in a replacement. Otherwise, can't a cooldown timer be used like for heavy tanks?

Medic squad
Due to the buggy nature of the squad’s automatic healing, it is being replaced.

• Automatic healing removed
  
• Replaced with ambulance-like AOE healing ability that locks squad into place and slowly heals units in proximity over time

Would be a good change if it only applies to UKF's Medic squad.

M8 Scott
The M8 Scott is receiving further adjustments to tone down its autofire power level while making the barrage better, shifting the power of the unit more towards player input. Changes to the barrage scatter should make the barrage more reliable against far away targets in the fog of war.

• Damage from 100 to 80
  
• AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.35/0.2
  
• AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/3
  
• Distance max scatter for barrage from 10 to 6

This is too much of a nerf to autofire. The Scott can snipe models, but has a pretty small Aoe, while the Pack Howi can't snipe models, but has a big AoE. With 80 damage and 0.75 near AoE damage, the Scott wouldn't fill any niche and just be a severely overpriced mortar whenever it's not using barrage. The main issue with the Scott is not its damage output, but that it's too hard to kill with its high speed, decent hp and double smoke abilities. Instead, lowering autofire range from 60 to 50 would make it easier for Axis to get AT in range and harder for USF to simply camp the Scotts besides his Jacksons on autofire.

Thoughts on V4

Just thinking aloud, I think it might actually be better to remove their G43 instead of the RA bonus. It would promote using 5 men Grens as your really sturdy mainlines with free healing while mixing in 1 to 2 LMG Grens inbetween for dps. Currently the G43 makes them too blob friendly, making them better at short/mid range, better at chasing and better at retaining dps. Removing their G43 would also mean less overlap in role of VSL Grens with G43 Grens.

How do 5 men Grenadier without the received accuracy or G43 perform vs & men conscripts when both units vet3? Imo that need to be look at.

60 seconds is too long on top of 5 CP for the initial Valentine, 30 seconds should be enough to let the Axis opponent recover if the UKF player decides to yolo his Valentine and panic call-in a replacement. Otherwise, can't a cooldown timer be used like for heavy tanks?

Imo the units does not need shared veterancy and I find the arty too easy to use.

I would rather see the unit replaced by an upgrade for Officer and the unit moved to special weapons doctrine.

Thoughts on V4

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Would be a good change if it only applies to UKF's Medic squad.
...

I am not sure why the balance team want to change healing so much but if this changes goes ahead UKF will have an early cheap FRP with healing increasing the pressure they can apply.

Thoughts on V4

..They could also do with a slight 2mp reinforcement cost reduction, because their accuracy-focused veterancy, inability to make sandbags and large squad size makes them prone to bleed.

...

Penal have been dominating the meta for ages, if they now do not "cut it" it and they have not received any nerf it a clear cut case of "power creep" that should be avoided.

Penal have been dominating the meta for ages, if they now do not "cut it" it and they have not received any nerf it a clear cut case of "power creep" that should be avoided.

Penals are not meta for over a year now.
They are not dominating anything but scrublords now that cons got improved and people learned to not fight against penal openings, but to outcap them and roflstomp them with early LVs while they struggle to built T3.

Penals are not meta for over a year now.
They are not dominating anything but scrublords now that cons got improved and people learned to not fight against penal openings, but to outcap them and roflstomp them with early LVs while they struggle to built T3.

This is feedback thread if you want to present your theories about Penals pls start another thread.

The chances that took people 3+ years to figure out how to play vs Penal as far less than to have power creep thou.

This is feedback thread if you want to present your theories about Penals pls start another thread.

The chances that took people 3+ years to figure out how to play vs Penal as far less than to have power creep thou.

And it magically makes penals not economical burden on menpower in late game how again?

The unit you personally and without any evidence other then "I said so, so its true!" claim is "dominating" anything is simply false.

Penals strength in early game can be worked around with and they scale extremely badly into the late game due to lack of AI weapon upgrade and lowest in the game rec acc vet, so what JibberJabberJobber said about them stands true.

Sorry, units do not magically appear and disappear in the game to lean on their strengths and not suffer from their weaknesses, you have to look at the unit performance through the prism of whole game duration and penals could do with restoring their old reinforcement cost either from get go or as T4 thing as they no longer are unbeatable threat they were back when they were the only viable option.

If you can't see how that is relevant to the thread and the issue JibberJabberJobber touched on, perhaps you should not participate any further?

How do 5 men Grenadier without the received accuracy or G43 perform vs 7 men conscripts when both units vet3? Imo that need to be look at.

This isn't really relevant for how 5 men Grenadiers should be balanced. 7 men Conscripts are extremely durable and hard to bleed, making assaulting at close range with any infantry (at which point the G43 makes a difference) a costly and timely endeavour. The 7 men Conscript upgrade is only available at the start of the lategame, at which point you should be getting units like Mortars / P4s / Brumms / Pwerfers to deal with the Conscripts and plan around Assault & Hold and/or Fragmentation Bombs to make a breakthrough.

Imo the units does not need shared veterancy and I find the arty too easy to use.

I would rather see the unit replaced by an upgrade for Officer and the unit moved to special weapons doctrine.

Moving the unit might be better long-term, but it's too drastic a change if there's no certainty of follow-up patches. Also would take too long to test to make sure both doctrines would be in a good spot afterwards. Better to tone down the doctrine, but keep the same design.

I am not sure why the balance team want to change healing so much but if this changes goes ahead UKF will have an early cheap FRP with healing increasing the pressure they can apply.

You mean USF? Brits can already make a FRP and use selfhealing Sections or buy Medics for 60 muni, so it doesn't make a difference. For USF I agree it would make forward Ambulance a no-brainer, which is why it shouldn't affect USF's Medic squad.

This isn't really relevant for how 5 men Grenadiers should be balanced. 7 men Conscripts are extremely durable and hard to bleed, making assaulting at close range with any infantry (at which point the G43 makes a difference) a costly and timely endeavour. The 7 men Conscript upgrade is only available at the start of the lategame, at which point you should be getting units like Mortars / P4s / Brumms / Pwerfers to deal with the Conscripts and plan around Assault & Hold and/or Fragmentation Bombs to make a breakthrough.

They should be balanced according to what they are facing...

Moving the unit might be better long-term, but it's too drastic a change if there's no certainty of follow-up patches. Also would take too long to test to make sure both doctrines would be in a good spot afterwards. Better to tone down the doctrine, but keep the same design.

The commander need to be look at anyway because the sure volume of firepower it provides is staggering.

You mean USF? Brits can already make a FRP and use selfhealing Sections or buy Medics for 60 muni, so it doesn't make a difference. For USF I agree it would make forward Ambulance a no-brainer, which is why it shouldn't affect USF's Medic squad.

The UKF FRP will not longer need any micro at all to heal with medics placed their and no top of that one can full bren before needing to upgrade med kits.

(edited since some people have trouble understanding or are deliberately trolling)

They should be balanced according to what they are facing...

They are also balanced according to what backs them up.
Ever wondered why T34 is not a strongest med in game?
This is why.

The UKF FRP will not longer need any micro at all and no top of that one can full bren before needing to upgrade med kits.

UKF FRP already does not need any micro.
Its a building.
You don't micro buildings around.

They should be balanced according to what they are facing...

No, they should be balanced around the other infantry options Ostheer has and the strength of the doctrine. Comparing VSL Grenadiers with 7 men Conscripts in a vacuum does not take into account how factions are balanced around each other.

The commander need to be look at anyway because the sure volume of firepower it provides is staggering.

I agree Royal Artillery has - ironically enough - too many artillery options. I think removing Concentrated Sexton Barrage from the Valentine would help against players that use the doctrine solely to spam as much artillery as possible, especially in team games.

The UKF FRP will not longer need any micro at all and no top of that one can full bren before needing to upgrade med kits.

The difference between 180 manpower for a Medic squad and 60 munitions for the Medic upgrade is huge, this is on top of the FRP itself, which costs 200 manpower. Then there's also the upkeep of the Medic squad. The combo is simply not worth it just to get 1.33 more Brens earlier on (which also costs 150 manpower to unlock). You're looking at 2 less Sections on the field if you plan to get this whole package.

No, they should be balanced around the other infantry options Ostheer has and the strength of the doctrine. Comparing VSL Grenadiers with 7 men Conscripts in a vacuum does not take into account how factions are balanced around each other.

Imo balance is done vs what they are facing, diversity is done with in the faction itself.

Personally I would scrap the hole G43/VSL thing and either have 1 G43 upgrade with 5 men and with about riflemen DPS or separate "grenadier unit" armed with these weapons

The difference between 180 manpower for a Medic squad and 60 munitions for the Medic upgrade is huge, this is on top of the FRP itself, which costs 200 manpower. Then there's also the upkeep of the Medic squad. The combo is simply not worth it just to get 1.33 more Brens earlier on (which also costs 150 manpower to unlock). You're looking at 2 less Sections on the field if you plan to get this whole package.

The medic can be used to cap first where UKF have problems, it can even ride the UC. Point here is that UKF can camp any important point nad have reinforcement and heal (later can turn into retreat point) investing mostly in manpower for something that would Ostheer 300 manpower +120 mu and OKW added fuel and risk.

Imo balance is done vs what they are facing, diversity is done with in the faction itself.

Ok, but in that case the 7 men Conscript upgrade should unlock at T1/T2, BARs should cost 45 munitions and Bolster should cost 10 fuel instead of 35, then the current performance of VSL Grenadiers would be acceptable.

The medic can be used to cap first where UKF have problems, it can even ride the UC. Point here is that UKF can camp any important point nad have reinforcement and heal (later can turn into retreat point) investing mostly in manpower for something that would Ostheer 300 manpower +120 mu and OKW added fuel and risk.

- UKF doesn't have any problems capping.
- UC should be fighting, not capping points with a medic inside, that's another 260mp you're not using optimally.
- Just get 1-2 med kits on your Sections and you can already do what you're describing at a much cheaper cost.
- You won't be able to camp any important point if you're down 3 Sections, cause you made a Medic squad, FRP, a UC and got early Bren tech.

- UKF doesn't have any problems capping.
- UC should be fighting, not capping points with a medic inside, that's another 260mp you're not using optimally.
- Just get 1-2 med kits on your Sections and you can already do what you're describing at a much cheaper cost.
- You won't be able to camp any important point if you're down 3 Sections, cause you made a Medic squad, FRP, a UC and got early Bren tech.

I will not continue the VSL since I have little to add and we drifting of topic.

Maybe its because I am starting from different basis but UKF do not need a mobile healing unit since they can already heal with mainline infatry for free and heal from FA.

If the problem is having to build a FA in base for heal, as I heard from Mod member they should get base healer like other faction do.

I will not continue the VSL since I have little to add and we drifting of topic.

Maybe its because I am starting from different basis but UKF do not need a mobile healing unit since they can already heal with mainline infatry for free and heal from FA.

If the problem is having to build a FA in base for heal, as I heard from Mod member they should get base healer like other faction do.

It's for teh Assault Sections, that's the whole point. Or if you went for a lot of Sappers and MGs for some reason. The addition of the Medic squad is a good thing cause it makes Section spam less of a no-brainer. You look at it as if it hurts Axis, but it actually leads to more variety, so making it easier to use is good. Besides any claims, getting a Medic squad is far from established meta and I strongly doubt it ever will be.

I'd also prefer a simple Medic upgrade on the HQ, but the balance team doesn't want that for some reason, so whatever. At least it's unique.

It's for teh Assault Sections, that's the whole point. Or if you went for a lot of Sappers and MGs for some reason. The addition of the Medic squad is a good thing cause it makes Section spam less of a no-brainer. You look at it as if it hurts Axis, but it actually leads to more variety, so making it easier to use is good. Besides any claims, getting a Medic squad is far from established meta and I strongly doubt it ever will be.

I'd also prefer a simple Medic upgrade on the HQ, but the balance team doesn't want that for some reason, so whatever. At least it's unique.

I do not buys the assault section argument. A.S. can heal from starting Tommie or from FA heal.

It is my opinion that if medic squad becomes AOE an ambulance heal then we will spamming of this units especially in team-games and teammates will postpone getting their own heal.

Imagine forward healing for the hole team that can retreat.

I will wait for a reason for this unit to exist from the MOD team.

The Battlegroup changes are great and must happen, because OKW is the least diverse Faction in the beginning and all its moves are expected from the opponent, in addition the extreme lack of support weapons was always an issue for OKW ,this was fine when the faction was op but now after the huge nerfs they got their is no reason for that at all , finally this changes will make them more interesting to play and more balanced with the rest factions.

Here's some ideas to touch-up underused Ostheer commanders and abilities, let me know what you think. Might do Soviets as well in the future.

Trying to keep the changes small, as to not push the power level of these commanders above those of their alternatives.

Ability buffs

Luftwaffe Supply
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Mobile Defense
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Strategic Reserves
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Ability replacements

Festung Support
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Joint Operations
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Storm Doctrine
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German Mechanized
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Air-Dropped Medical Supplies:

• Air-dropped crates from 3 to 2.
  
• Cost from 30 to 20 munitions.
  

Other solution might include:
Transports now can carry the med kits
Medkit are not instantly used by Pioneer and Grenadier but instead "replace" the normal medic for one use.

Incendiary bombs:
Flame bombs will land in a circle instead of a line (like the Soviet Incendiary Barrage).

This the problem is not with shape but with that weapon profile modifiers did not have its damage updated and thus it does far to less damage (I think mortar half truck also)

Strategic Reserves
Flare cost from 60 to 50 munitons

Flare could become a Soviet mortar clone and cost 30.

Storm Doctrine

• Riegel mine replaced with Counterattack Tactics
  

Riegel could use some changes such as lower time to plant and/or be available to more units maybe AT pgs?

German Mechanized

• Mechanized Grenadier Group replaced with Mechanized Assault Group.
  
  

Imo the mechanized group could be changed to:

Can now also be built from HQ
and/or
Now comes with a repair team (there is one in game files) or with German tank crew that are like pioneer but have superior repair speed
and/or
Can now set up and become and 1-2 pioneer spwan that automatically repair.

Think these changes fit the thematically.

• Mechanized Grenadier Group replaced with Mechanized Assault Group.
  
• Panzergrenadiers can be upgraded with the Support Package from Infantry Doctrine (this addition does not apply to Mechanized Assault)
  

The Grenadier 250 as it is in the doctrine currently is too situational, despite the recent cost decrease. The 250 works with Mechanized Assault, because you're constantly applying pressure from the start of the game and the 250 works with Infantry Doctrine, because the timing is much earlier. With normal Grenadier builds, you want to be investing in more impactful units like the 222 or Panzergrenadiers, instead of investing in a (probably) 4th Grenadier squad with a fragile halftrack. Replacing the Grenadier inside with a Panzergrenadier would give it more impact.

Allowing Panzergrenadiers to upgrade with the Support Package would thematically fit well and might make an underrated ability see more use.

Too be honest i am personally not a fan of halftrack call ins with infantry in them (lendlease assault guards is another example). This goes 2x for OST IMO since getting a medium out quickly is important to OST pressure. I would propose that it becomes an empty haltrack just like in OST infantry doctrine so the player can decide what infantry they want in it and it wont have the super high purchasing price.