Should doctrinal units/upgrades be superior?

This is false, the 76 has a higher firerate than the 85 thus making it stronger vs infantry, for a difference of 40 fuel. If you want to look at an actual upgrade compare SVTs to 7 men for instance, svts bring way higher dmg output and you can get them way earlier (cp1) compared to tier 4, literally a better option in every way possible while 76s are not too uncommonly a better pick than an 85.

A slightly faster rof vs more armour, health and pen and iirc better aoe profile. Totally not a direct upgrade, not like the "instead of a more durable squad with cheaper models you shoot more"

7man and svt are like 5th man and lmg for grens. It's not an upgrade over one another its a divergent path. 85mm t34 is an upgrade over the 76mm in the very literally sense.

Just because i found it funny, the difference is just 0.05s lol.

6-6.3 reload vs 6.1 (without counting the aim times which are the same)

It doesn't matter because the main AI comes from the MGs not the main cannon which is more RNG based.

All differences, from the new coh2stat site.

T76:
Speed: 6.5 Accel: 2.3 Rotate: 36 Armor: 150/75 Health: 640 Pop:10
+0.05 RoF main gun
+5% Reload at vet 2

T85
Sight: 35 Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.5 Rotate: 34 Armor: 160/80 Health: 800 Pop:14
+40 pen across the board
Better Scatter. Distance max 5 vs 6.9
+15 Weapon rotation at vet2

"Doctrinal units shouldn't counter doctrinal units"
I wholeheartedly agree with this, because if doctrinal units counter doctrinal units it then becomes an rng fest whether or not you have the correct counter in your roster.

And, I think THC knew this.
If we look at the game during beta, we can see an interesting trend in each side's doctrines.

Soviet doctrines had much more impactful unit choices in them compared to ostheer. Do you choose a doctrine with T34/85s, or KV1s, or an ISU 152 or the IS2? do you want one with shocks, or guards, or conscript ppsh41s?

Meanwhile, Ostheer's doctrines mostly provided small benefits. Smoke dischargers, camouflage, stun nades, spotting scopes. Elephant was in Ost's tech tree.

This meant no matter which doctrine was picked by the Soviet player, Ostheer could have a unit out to counter it, thereby preventing the "do I have the doctrine in my roster to counter his doctrine" rng.

I am not denying that balance was a mess at the game's inception, but I do believe that THC's underlying game design choices made sense, and these underlying mechanics seem to have been lost on Lelic and the studios that made the Western forces factions.

If you believe that my dissertation is false, please let me know! If you also think this was the intention behind doctrines, let me know as well.

7man and svt are like 5th man and lmg for grens. It's not an upgrade over one another its a divergent path. 85mm t34 is an upgrade over the 76mm in the very literally sense.

Sure its the same, since 5men is objectively better in most situations, i.e it's a braindead choice given both options. This is the same with SVTs and 7men, where SVTs is objectively better in most situations and therefor it becomes a braindead choice, when given both options. The doctrinal stuff is better. Returning to the t34/76 vs t34/85 argument, the 85 isn't always the braindead better option, therefor i think its done right.

Sure its the same, since 5men is objectively better in most situations, i.e it's a braindead choice given both options. This is the same with SVTs and 7men, where SVTs is objectively better in most situations and therefor it becomes a braindead choice, when given both options. The doctrinal stuff is better. Returning to the t34/76 vs t34/85 argument, the 85 isn't always the braindead better option, therefor i think its done right.

Having a doctrinal option being a "braindead" option does not mean it is done "wrong".

SVT is badly designed but not because it is superior to 7 conscript.

Doctrinal option can offer something more cost efficient,something superior, something not available... but they should offer something worth a commander slot.

This is false, the 76 has a higher firerate than the 85 thus making it stronger vs infantry

That is false, the reload is 6.35s for the T-34-76 and 6.4s for the T-34-85 (so completely negligible). However, the T-34-85 has better scatter (5 max range vs 6.9). So the 85 is superior in regards to AI as well as AT. The only thing the T-34-76 is arguably better at is cost efficiency in certain situations.

The drawback for the T34/85 is the price. Ramming becomes less of a no-brainer and you don't trade as efficiently.

The drawback for the T34/85 is the price. Ramming becomes less of a no-brainer and you don't trade as efficiently.

I can only partially I agree.

One pay less for what he gets. Imo T-34/85 is more cost efficient than T-34/76 so the cost is not a drawback (especially after the "accidental" buff to mg). Imo T-34/76 is in the top most cost efficient medium tanks.

Only ram is less cost efficient but one can simply build a T-34/76 if one want to ram.

Well, I agree that there should be a soft counter to doctrinal units in all non doctrinal ones. USF for example can't counter Axis arty without taking arty commander. I'm not sure about having a hard counter in non doctrinal. Trying to pull that off would totally destroy balance as you would need to introduce a whole lot more units and overhaul existing. Soft counters would be better at this stage. However, I doubt this will happen. Every faction has it's strengths and has units that have no hard counter non doctrinal. Units like that are walking stuka, Jackson (panthers are soft counters), werfer, Calliope, Elefant/Jagdtiger, Raketen (infantry is soft counter due to retreat)... just at the top of my head.

That is false, the reload is 6.35s for the T-34-76 and 6.4s for the T-34-85 (so completely negligible). However, the T-34-85 has better scatter (5 max range vs 6.9). So the 85 is superior in regards to AI as well as AT. The only thing the T-34-76 is arguably better at is cost efficiency in certain situations.

I was under the impression that these units had a larger difference when it comes to firerate, thanks for correcting me. The firerate of the tanks was not my main concern however, but simply that both vehicles (one being a specialized version of the other) are solid picks and that given both options you don't always opt for the same one. This is not the case with a lot of commander tied stuff, examples given are svts/7men, 5 men grens/lmg, and shocks troops that has no comparison what so ever in the soviet tech tree.

Having a doctrinal option being a "braindead" option does not mean it is done "wrong".

SVT is badly designed but not because it is superior to 7 conscript.

Doctrinal option can offer something more cost efficient,something superior, something not available... but they should offer something worth a commander slot.

The thread is titled "Should doctrinal units/upgrades be superior?", and this is my interpretation of when it is done well and when it's been done less well. I don't know how you value commanders, but I don't think they should be the make or break of a game, and they should certainly not be braindead better options than given in the regular tech tree, in my opinion.

I was under the impression that these units had a larger difference when it comes to firerate, thanks for correcting me. The firerate of the tanks was not my main concern however, but simply that both vehicles (one being a specialized version of the other) are solid picks and that given both options you don't always opt for the same one. This is not the case with a lot of commander tied stuff, examples given are svts/7men, 5 men grens/lmg, and shocks troops that has no comparison what so ever in the soviet tech tree.

The 85 isn't a specialized version of the 76mm it's just a bigger version, unless that specialization is simply "being better than the 76mm itself n every way" in which case I suppose that's true.

7 man however does a good job of being attractive over the svts by being ideal for recrewing on the field. 7 man makes merge infinitely more useful. The big problem with 5 man grens is that there really isn't a trade off at all. Sure you lose the concentrated DPS of the 42 but you get mobility and durability and even utility via free heals out of it. Losing something, like the snare as was suggested would tone the 5 man down enough to make lmgs a part of the composition instead of a replacement. And giving lmg grens a bonus against suppressed troops would solidify them as versatile defensive infantry which is much needed.

The 85 isn't a specialized version of the 76mm it's just a bigger version

Yeah I also disagree that the T-34-85 is a sidegrade. It's straight up a better T-34-76. The only situations I can think of where a player might go with the 76 instead is when they can't wait for the extra fuel, when they just need a tank to force enemy infantry off the flanks (in which case a T-34-76 is more cost efficient) or when they need a tank to ram with. In all other cases, the T-34-85 is simply the superior choice. Which is completely fine in my opinion. Doctrinal things shouldn't be better per default, but it's fine if some things are to some extend. As long as they aren't that much better that the doctrine becomes a no brainer pick. Soviet doctrine picks have a healthy amount of diversity at the moment. Could the T-34-85 have worked as more of a specialized vehicle (for example a tank hunter like the Panther)? Sure. But the current design works just as well.

In that regard I also don't agree that the SVTs aren't a sidegrade compared to the 7 men upgrade. I think it is. SVTs come sooner and are better for the mid game while 7 men are better late game. It's down to player strategy and preference which one to pick, demonstrated by the fact that both are meta and both are used very often. The same is true for Panzerfusiliers and Volksgrenadiers. 5 men Grens were supposed to offer the same choice, but ultimately their increased durability has made it a favourable upgrade over the LMG 42. But again I don't think this is bad per se as the doctrine is designed on purpose to offer very good infantry bonuses but little else. So even if the VSL upgrade itself is a bit of a no brainer pick because it's better than the stock upgrade, the doctrine isn't.

The thread is titled "Should doctrinal units/upgrades be superior?", and this is my interpretation of when it is done well and when it's been done less well. I don't know how you value commanders, but I don't think they should be the make or break of a game, and they should certainly not be braindead better options than given in the regular tech tree, in my opinion.

Imo commanders should be of equal power level. That power level could be different from faction to faction but I would agree that "make or break" power level would not be a good choice.

As for unit/abilities, one can have unit/abilities that add different options to the faction but if the unit/ability is more of the same one has little room to make the ability viable. Making a doctrinal option superior to the stock might be a "braindead" option but some times imo it simply necessary.

As long the the commanders are of similar power level I do not think that this should be an issue.