State of the ISU-152

I have seen all of the TD bounce on Panther frontally and the most surprising was ISU bouncing on pz4 okw vet 2 frontally which happened with me. Out of all TDs except ISU panther's shot does not bounce. Yeah they are a problem I guess also the blitz panther gets on vet 1.

Has there been any replay where the ISU has wiped a squad with full hp?

Have to see the OHK radius, but to me this is like people saying the ISU AT is bad. I've been using ISU on AT regularly for the last week or 2 and I've killed tiger aces, elephants, JP4s, Panthers etc. It's not bad, you just can't expect the ISU to 1v4 multiple AT sources.

People saying that a panther can 1v1 an ISU are doing it in a vaccum. In real games you're on rails and metal, there are mines, snares and other tanks. Flanking isn't always an option, and frontally the panther loses.

Start by nerfing the commanders, not the units.

You just decribe gamedesign differences between OST and SU. OST have units with narrow specialization (better perfomance against specific targets), while SU units all-around (mediocre perfomance against 2 types of threates). OST have only few all-around major units: P4 and Tiger. And SU have few specialist units: katy and su-85.
You can kill ISU use infantry/AT builds (shreck blobs, stun shots, blietzkfrieg armor) or use your elefant. In 1vs1 there aren't unbeatable builds.
I saw that game with zis spam. OST player lost 2 brummbar until he realized that against team weapon spam he need werfer...It was tunnel vision of OST player.

I fundamentally don't agree with this interpretation. I agree with the fact that it was the original game design, which was good. It has changed over the years, and now those dual purpose units aren't inferior to dedicated units. That is the problem.

With ISU you are just ok getting it against all threats. Even if has less success penetrating the heaviest armour, it will basically destroy everything else, which is enough (namely, at guns, team weapons, light vehicles, medimum tanks, etc.). Apart from that it will still add some damage to all AT fire against the heaviest armour as well. If you combine it with snares you can just deal hp damage being out of range itself.

It really should be balanced around dealing with soft targets only. It would be a much better design (not the best but better).

Start by nerfing the commanders, not the units.

+1

Just like Jeager Armor, the mechanized support doctrine has everything you need (more or less).

Have to see the OHK radius, but to me this is like people saying the ISU AT is bad. I've been using ISU on AT regularly for the last week or 2 and I've killed tiger aces, elephants, JP4s, Panthers etc. It's not bad, you just can't expect the ISU to 1v4 multiple AT sources.

People saying that a panther can 1v1 an ISU are doing it in a vaccum. In real games you're on rails and metal, there are mines, snares and other tanks. Flanking isn't always an option, and frontally the panther loses.

The most damage I have seen done by ISU to an infantry squad is by doing 80% health damage to the squad and then subsequently kill it. I have never in my entire COH 2 history seen ISU do a one hit kill on not a clamped up squad and they are on full health. Panther can 1v1 ISU and beat it, you have to be around rank 9000 or something to keep it infront of ISU and hoping to beat it. The reload time of ISU gives panther ample amount of time to not get hit by the second shot of ISU and easily flank it. Now the problem is support for ISU, well you have a 70 range tank destroyer with the same issue and it can easily stun and stuka dive bomb kill the tank. I don't think these abilities need changes since they would take out the fun from the game not everything has to mediocre and tasteless.

i used isu last night on whiteball express and it never one shotted a squad. it always takes 2 shots to kill a squad on full health which is in line with other tanks like brumbar

The most damage I have seen done by ISU to an infantry squad is by doing 80% health damage to the squad and then subsequently kill it. I have never in my entire COH 2 history seen ISU do a one hit kill on not a clamped up squad and they are on full health. Panther can 1v1 ISU and beat it, you have to be around rank 9000 or something to keep it infront of ISU and hoping to beat it. The reload time of ISU gives panther ample amount of time to not get hit by the second shot of ISU and easily flank it. Now the problem is support for ISU, well you have a 70 range tank destroyer with the same issue and it can easily stun and stuka dive bomb kill the tank. I don't think these abilities need changes since they would take out the fun from the game not everything has to mediocre and tasteless.

Imo the problem is different. Very often an mg, pak, mortar crews or infantry won't be full health. Your scenario is highly unrealistic. Axis units will be fighting other frontline units while ISU will be adding damage. If ISU deals 80% damage, any other frontline squad will easily finish the job ar ISU will finish off a squad that is fighting other squads.

Panther won't beat ISU unless Soviet player just lost all his support. Panther will be likely snared when diving and ISU will just shoot from afar adding additional damage, or will use mark target (imo then it deals even more damage than elephant).

Both above scenarios are very likely. The problem is that ISU will be able to do both jobs from 70 distance. It is a balance problem imo. It is too good at dealing with all threats.

i used isu last night on whiteball express and it never one shotted a squad. it always takes 2 shots to kill a squad on full health which is in line with other tanks like brumbar

1) ISU has twice the range of the Brumbar
2) ISU has a much faster projectile
3) ISU need a lot less micro since it does not need manual aiming
4) ISU is firing generally on units with less entities
5) ISU has also AP rounds.

If some one compares the unit with the one of the best AI axis units in the game it is evidence that the dual role average in both roles Soviet design does not apply to ISU since it one of the best AI units in the game and has decent AT.

Imo the problem is different. Very often an mg, pak, mortar crews or infantry won't be full health.

That is 100% on you then, ost has multiple methods of forward healing and reinforcement stock.

Your scenario is highly unrealistic. Axis units will be fighting other frontline units while ISU will be adding damage. If ISU deals 80% damage, any other frontline squad will easily finish the job ar ISU will finish off a squad that is fighting other squads.

Its the exact same case with brummbar and brummbar is much more oppressive because
-it arrives earlier
-it costs much less
-it shoots twice as fast
-it always hits, contrary to ISU which has highest scatter values in game

We've just had a tournament where 1 of these units was used predominantly and performed above expectations consistently. That unit was not ISU. If ISU was half as potent as you try to claim it, it would be used more often.

Panther won't beat ISU unless Soviet player just lost all his support. Panther will be likely snared when diving and ISU will just shoot from afar adding additional damage, or will use mark target (imo then it deals even more damage than elephant).

Flank it.
Do not go in frontally against all of the support that will stand IN FRONT of ISU and don't suicide a single panther, where is your own infantry support to clear ATGs?
If Helping Hans can deal with ISU using only Pumas, you certainly can do the same using panthers.

Both above scenarios are very likely. The problem is that ISU will be able to do both jobs from 70 distance. It is a balance problem imo. It is too good at dealing with all threats.

While using stuka on vehicle is indeed unlikely scenario, ele itself hardcounters ISU badly, mark target or not, Ele will destroy ISU before losing 30% of own health consistently.

And no, ISU can NOT do both jobs from 70 range, its AT, as already established yet you chosing to ignore it all the time is OK at the very best and in context of all AT units in game, its plain bad, moreover, since you already forgot it, ISU needs to switch ammo, it means it can do AI OR AT, it can NEVER do both, because it doesn't work that way.

That is 100% on you then, ost has multiple methods of forward healing and reinforcement stock.

What he describes is a very realistic scenario. ISU shot interferes with an ongoing infantry engagement, and if the hit is one of the better ones, you have a decent chance for a squad wipe.
The only way to keep your health above 90% at all times is retreating after 5 seconds of fight, which seems what you are suggesting.

Its the exact same case with brummbar and brummbar is much more oppressive because
-it arrives earlier
-it costs much less
-it shoots twice as fast
-it always hits, contrary to ISU which has highest scatter values in game

We've just had a tournament where 1 of these units was used predominantly and performed above expectations consistently. That unit was not ISU. If ISU was half as potent as you try to claim it, it would be used more often.

You're comparing a doctrinal vs a non doctrinal unit. Judging by this, we need to buff guards hard because they were only bought in a couple of games and usually only once while Conscripts were spammed like crazy. Also you are neglecting one big plus for the ISU: It shoots further than all its counters (except for doctrinal Ele and Jagdtiger). The Brummbär needs to push into danger zones to be effective, that's why it is also very strong: It must to be effective in a short window of time because it is constantly under fire. The ISU has other weaknesses, but it is best used to continuously chip away models from enemy squads even when no real fight is going on.

While weird terrain features are of course a thing, on mostly flat terrain it is almost impossible for ISU to not hit its target if you have vision. Some shots might only do 20-30% squad, but all of them will hit. The only question is how hard.

What he describes is a very realistic scenario. ISU shot interferes with an ongoing infantry engagement, and if the hit is one of the better ones, you have a decent chance for a squad wipe.
The only way to keep your health above 90% at all times is retreating after 5 seconds of fight, which seems what you are suggesting.

While mainlines might be exposed, there isn't much reason to keep half dead weapon teams on field when you know there is ISU there.

You're comparing a doctrinal vs a non doctrinal unit. Judging by this, we need to buff guards hard because they were only bought in a couple of games and usually only once while Conscripts were spammed like crazy.

You seem to think I want to buff ISU, while I am just portraying that we already have a much more potent AI units which are not as restricted and their performance is fine.
Basically, I'm pointing out hypocrisy.
Yes, there is range difference, but it never was an argument before when a unit overperformed.

Also, that example would hold any ground if soviets had some kind of stock ISU alternative, which correct me if I'm wrong - they most certainly do not have.

And while weird terrain features are of course a thing, on mostly flat terrain it is almost impossible for ISU to not hit its target if you have vision. Some shots might only do 20-30% squad, but all of them will hit. The only question is how hard.

Oh it is possible to not hit its targets.
In fact, ISU does this quite often, because you know - LARGEST SCATTER IN GAME.
But people only register hits, completely disregarding the fact that unit was shooting for last minute without effect.

Unless you misspelled Brummbar, then yes, all of the shots will hit.

While mainlines might be exposed, there isn't much reason to keep half dead weapon teams on field when you know there is ISU there.

This is true, but losing mainlines hurts just as much, so my point is still valid. And also weapon crews often need to defend in a fight against other units and will take damage.

You seem to think I want to buff ISU, while I am just portraying that we already have a much more potent AI units which are not as restricted and their performance is fine.
Basically, I'm pointing out hypocrisy.
Yes, there is range difference, but it never was an argument before when a unit overperformed.

Also, that example would hold any ground if soviets had some kind of stock ISU alternative, which correct me if I'm wrong - they most certainly do not have.

No I do not think this, my point is that you cannot compare the number of occurances of doctrinal vs nondoctrinal units and then draw a conclusion regarding their power level or balance based on that. Because, you know, doctrinal units are doctrinal while non-doctrinals are not.

This is what I was pointing out with my hyperbole example.

Oh it is possible to not hit its targets.
In fact, ISU does this quite often, because you know - LARGEST SCATTER IN GAME.
But people only register hits, completely disregarding the fact that unit was shooting for last minute without effect.

Unless you misspelled Brummbar, then yes, all of the shots will hit.

In fact, ISU hits almost always, because you know - LARGEST AOE IN GAME.

As I said, terrain elevation makes shots miss in weird and unplanned ways. I have actually posted data on ISU's AoE damage three weeks ago, please show me yours if you know better. A standing ISU shooting at a Volkssquad in sight will never completely miss it. This is how you should use an ISU. Misses mostly come from the fact that players fail to use hold fire correctly and the ISU shoots while moving to the frontline, which doubles all scatter values.
Contrary, on longer ranges, you can actually dodge a decent portion of the damage of Brummbär damage due to the long flight time. It's still a good unit, but claiming that the Brummbär never misses is wrong. It also takes way more effort aiming it. But as you said - people only register hits.

like i brought up before, it is overperforming because of its rear armor and it is more mobile than elefant....

nerf the rear armor so P4 can pen from far. So weird that Elefant get asshanded by T34 and Shermans and Cromwells easier than ISU152 when flanked.

like i brought up before, it is overperforming because of its rear armor and it is more mobile than elefant....

nerf the rear armor so P4 can pen from far. So weird that Elefant get asshanded by T34 and Shermans and Cromwells easier than ISU152 when flanked.

Rear armor should be reduced and that goes for other vehicles also.

1) ISU has twice the range of the Brumbar
2) ISU has a much faster projectile
3) ISU need a lot less micro since it does not need manual aiming
4) ISU is firing generally on units with less entities
5) ISU has also AP rounds.

If some one compares the unit with the one of the best AI axis units in the game it is evidence that the dual role average in both roles Soviet design does not apply to ISU since it one of the best AI units in the game and has decent AT.

Half of what you typed is false, watch some hans streams with him microing both units, he pretty much uses attack ground every time due to how unreliable they both are vs moving squads.

Brumbar also has pretty much identical range with bunkerbuster so nerfing the ISU when nondoc brumbar stays the same would be crazy.

Brumbar is actually viable in 1vs1 too, ISU is only really useful in team games that have open lane areas. Brum projectile can shoot over shot blockers but in true vipper fashion you conveniently ignore the perks of the axis units.

that's super false, isu does not need attack ground

and again false, 1 bunker buster range is 60 not 70, and is a an areas ability not auto fire

Is fine，but I hope reduce fuel cost to 245

Half of what you typed is false, watch some hans streams with him microing both units, he pretty much uses attack ground every time due to how unreliable they both are vs moving squads.

Brumbar also has pretty much identical range with bunkerbuster so nerfing the ISU when nondoc brumbar stays the same would be crazy.

If comparing the range of a muni-cost/long CD ability with the standard shots of a unit is fine, then all Allied mortars need a buff to 100 range because this is what OST mortar gets on counter barrage (even without muni cost).

What Hans does is super-optimizing the unit. The thing with the ISU is that the AoE is so large it is best if it hits near the center of the squad. Otherwise it might target a model on the edge of the squad and thereby not do as much damage as possible. That is the reason, not the movement of the squad. But due to the projectile's speed the ISU will still hit moving squads, whereas the Brummbär will reliably miss on larger distances if you don't lead the shot.

Half of what you typed is false, watch some hans streams with him microing both units, he pretty much uses attack ground every time due to how unreliable they both are vs moving squads.

Every thing in that post is accurate. Your response on the other hand is full of inaccuracies as other users have pointed out. Can you pls tone down the hostility in your post a bit?

Brumbar also has pretty much identical range with bunkerbuster so nerfing the ISU when nondoc brumbar stays the same would be crazy.

Brumbar is actually viable in 1vs1 too, ISU is only really useful in team games that have open lane areas. Brum projectile can shoot over shot blockers but in true vipper fashion you conveniently ignore the perks of the axis units.

Let me explain this once more, comparing ISU-152 and Brumbar is totally misleading for a number of reasons including the one I have already mentioned.

On top of that units work differently.

Brumbar needs to be aggressive to auto-fire while it is facing allied TD that can penetrate it reliably while outrangeing it by double its range.

ISU-152 can sit back and snipe units because the are few units that outrange it and even those by small margin and need spotter to do so.

Regardless if Brumabar has better AI or not ISU-152 has much better AT.

Imo the problem is different. Very often an mg, pak, mortar crews or infantry won't be full health. Your scenario is highly unrealistic. Axis units will be fighting other frontline units while ISU will be adding damage. If ISU deals 80% damage, any other frontline squad will easily finish the job ar ISU will finish off a squad that is fighting other squads.

Panther won't beat ISU unless Soviet player just lost all his support. Panther will be likely snared when diving and ISU will just shoot from afar adding additional damage, or will use mark target (imo then it deals even more damage than elephant).

Both above scenarios are very likely. The problem is that ISU will be able to do both jobs from 70 distance. It is a balance problem imo. It is too good at dealing with all threats.

The 80% health damage done by ISU was a RNG stuff it does not usually happen, at long range the scatter of ISU shots come to effect and it gets fairly inaccurate at hitting both Infantry and Armor at max 70 range.

I mentioned 1v1 of ISU and Panther, I don't know how panther will be snared in a 1v1. I also dont understand why a top 400 player will push ISU if it is supported by infantry. I dont want to get into this ISU vs Panther discussion it is idiotic.

It is not a balance problem, if you let your opponent stall for 260 fuel and have even control of the map while the Soviet guy saved up his 260 fuel, you need introspection rather than balancing of ISU.