What is the rationale behind tier upgrades?

Last night I observed a few live games and kept noticing that the US now appear to have units gated behind arbitrary building techs. Likewise, OkW tanks and the flak gun require an upgrade, meaning Obers are the only unit you can train by default.

I just wanted to ask why these measures were taken. It's not a criticism as much as simply an observation.

The US upgrades are quite cheap and so aren't going to delay for long, and I thought it odd that the pack howie requires a mechanized upgrade...

Finally, one of the many UI bugs I spotted was that Riflemen still have text saying they're elite and take longer to train, but this seems to be default text and from what I can see Elite Riflemen aren't in the game and haven't been for some years. Has no one else noticed this? It must have been in the game for years, unless there's some sort of new elite Rifleman mechanic I'm unaware of.

Thanks.

to make the buildings available earlier due to cheaper requirements but with limited output (1 unit).
so US for example can have a rather early mg without ruining the economy

not much of a mindstretch here

It was made to adjust timing for units like M2HB, M1 AT gun and obers. Now buldings cost lower (usually it's 50% of original cost), and open access only for part of units, but it happens earlier, than you will pay full price (50 fuel for USF buildings and 120 fuel for OKW T4), like it was before.

Ah ok, I couldn't remember what the old building costs were so I didn't know they'd also been made cheaper. Thanks Osinyavov!

for usf this 'tech split' also made double officer strats much more viable, something that was prohibitively expensive before the revamp.

for usf this 'tech split' also made double officer strats much more viable, something that was prohibitively expensive before the revamp.

Understood. Thanks.

On this topic: what's the deal with P-Grens being @ HQ now? Seems... odd. Grens are still T1 and P-Grens require T2 upgrade (I think?); why does T2 itself not need to be built now?

V1.1 &1.2 Changes

USF Starting Resources

-Starting fuel value increased from 15 to 20

Lieutenant and Captain Dispatch

-Cost from 150/30 to 200/35.
-Research time from 60 to 70.
-Now grants 1/4 of a CP upon completion.

Platoon and Company Command Post Upgrade

-Cost remains 50/20 to preserve light vehicle timing (as of 1.2)
-Research time from 30 to 20.
-Now grants 1/4 of a CP upon completion.

Major Dispatch

-Cost from 240/120 to 190/120
-Now grant 1/3 of a CP upon completion.

Rationale

After feedback, we felt that LT + CPT would become the dominant choice giving USF numerous infantry squads and all necessary support weapons to stall into a quick Major. Teching LT + CPT into Major will now cost 20 fuel more than completing either tier to unlock the Major. This should provide a meaningful choice for players.

The cheaper cost of officers was allowing USF to apply a lot of early field presence and pressure. We felt this was an issue for Ostheer in particular. We have increased the manpower cost of the LT and CPT by reallocating some of the Major's Mp cost to them. This change, in conjunction with the extra build time, should alleviate some of USF's newfound early pressure, while preserving improved USF build diversity. Note that the first Officer will still be available at the same time as in 1.0 due to +5 USF staring fuel.

The CP grant upon tech completion should help USF players fit certain units into a build more organically.

Airborne Doctrine

The following changes have been made to Airborne as the doctrine faced borderline irrelevance in this new tech structure. Both weapon drops should represent an attractive choice for players using a full LT or CPT build. The munition cost should prohibit weapon drop spam in team games.

-50 cal HMG now costs 125 manpower - 60 munitions
-57mm ATG now costs 125 manpower - 75 munitions. Now comes at 3cp
-Pathfinders available from 0cp

Understood. Thanks.

On this topic: what's the deal with P-Grens being @ HQ now? Seems... odd. Grens are still T1 and P-Grens require T2 upgrade (I think?); why does T2 itself not need to be built now?

Because they kept making more powerful unit available earlier and thus both PG and Ober where facing powerful vetted infatry when they arrived.

So they continued down the same path and made Pgs and Ober available earlier.

Thank you, Vipper. Another face I remember!

Thank you, Vipper. Another face I remember!

Hi man. Long time no see.

Because they kept making more powerful unit available earlier and thus both PG and Ober where facing powerful vetted infatry when they arrived.

The changes for Panzergrenadiers hardly had anything to do with the opposition they faced, clearly demonstrated by the fact that their new timing is only 1-2 minutes faster than what it used to be which barely makes a difference in enemy veterancy or weapon upgrades, and much more with the fact that they were incredibly hard to fit into builds when they were available at a time where most players would rather / had to invest in light vehicles or an ATG.

The changes for Panzergrenadiers hardly had anything to do with the opposition they faced, clearly demonstrated by the fact that their new timing is only 1-2 minutes faster than what it used to be which barely makes a difference in enemy veterancy or weapon upgrades, but with the fact that they were incredibly hard to fit into builds when they were available at a time where most players would rather / had to invest in light vehicles or an ATG.

true, who starts building pgrens when you already have 3-4 gren squads..

The changes for Panzergrenadiers hardly had anything to do with the opposition they faced, clearly demonstrated by the fact that their new timing is only 1-2 minutes faster than what it used to be which barely makes a difference in enemy veterancy or weapon upgrades, and much more with the fact that they were incredibly hard to fit into builds when they were available at a time where most players would rather / had to invest in light vehicles or an ATG.

Think you underestimate the importance of timing.

Pg (and Ober) used to have the role of "elite" infatry and come in most cases after one already had the main core of his army built. Pg where meant to be a supplement to they army and not its core.

Even is one tried to rush T2 Pg could not really take back the ground lost while waiting for BP1 and T2 structure.

Currently having Pg as core infatry (with AsG and Ostrup)is allot more common.

PG timing was fine for years, they slowly power creeped to become UP.

Think you underestimate the importance of timing.

Right.

Pg (and Ober) used to have the role of "elite" infatry and come in most cases after one already had the main core of his army built. Pg where meant to be a supplement to they army and not its core.

And their roles have been changed because these old roles didn't work.

Even is one tried to rush T2 Pg could not really take back the ground lost while waiting for BP1 and T2 structure.

Exactly, which was such a big issue that they were hardly ever used, which was a core reason for the shift to T0.

Currently having Pg as core infatry is allot more common.

Exactly, which was the point of the changes. To allow more varied builds for Ostheer.

PG timing was fine for years, they slowly power creeped to become UP.

It's only completely natural in an ever evolving game that some units lag behind or suddenly become more powerful because of other changes, and need changes to fit them into the new meta. Power creep is not inherently bad, that's just your opinion. And you have the right to have it, but don't sell it as fact.

Right.



And their roles have been changed because these old roles didn't work.

That is an arbitrary statement. Imo it the exact opposite first the role of penal changed from a "semi elite" to mainline infatry and then the role of the PG "did not work" (as I had pointed out during the Penal change).

Exactly, which was such a big issue that they were hardly ever used.

Exactly, which was the point of the changes. To allow more varied builds for Ostheer.

Not sure how successful that was. I am under the impression Ostheer still revolve around specific commanders (AsG, Ostruppen, 5 men Gren).

It's only completely natural in an ever evolving game that some units lag behind or suddenly become more powerful because of other changes.

Again imo it the other way round this a by product of partially changing a faction design and then adjusting the remaining factions to new level of originally changed faction.

If one is not using a constant to keep the power level in check the game will simply not remain in the same power level. The power level will simply be increased or decreased.

And none of this are meant as criticism to work the MOD team has done. I prized the continuously even when I disagree with changes.

And their roles have been changed because these old roles didn't work.

Nonsense - they worked for years. Just because you would rather have something immediately does not mean it 'didn't work' where it was, as evidenced by the fact P-Grens were T2 for what, 6-7 years?

Honestly, some of these arbitrary changes being made are just baffling to me.

Nonsense - they worked for years. Just because you would rather have something immediately does not mean it 'didn't work' where it was, as evidenced by the fact P-Grens were T2 for what, 6-7 years?

Honestly, some of these arbitrary changes being made are just baffling to me.

If you actually were around for last 4 years, you would notice that no one built PGs, because they arrived too late to be appealing outside of 4v4 shreck blobbers.

Also, conscript rework is THE BEST example that a unit can easily fall out of meta and never be seen for years, despite doing fine at beginning.

Just because there is nothing wrong with your horse carriage does not mean you should never get a car, you balance fossil.

Nonsense - they worked for years. Just because you would rather have something immediately does not mean it 'didn't work' where it was, as evidenced by the fact P-Grens were T2 for what, 6-7 years?

Honestly, some of these arbitrary changes being made are just baffling to me.

You haven't played the game in the last 3-4 years but now you're claiming that Panzergrens have worked fine for these last years? Talk about arbitrary and baffling.

'Balance fossil' is, potentially, the most original insult so far. I approve.

If people spam Grenadiers and therefore dont need Pgrens anymore once they arrive, then one >might< assume that the problem is related to tier 1 and not Pgrens themselves. But why balance tier 1 in balance patches when you can just redesign a faction (once again)?