Making OKW Battlegroup viable

HI guys,
I guess you also watched the UTT tourney and you saw OKW players always going Mechanized and building Puma+Stuka. And who would blame them because thats what you have to do if you want to have a chance in a highly competitive match up.
Yes, there is that other tech building but nobody ever used it in the tourney because it simply offers not enough.
That being said a rework for OKW battlegroup should be one of the priorities of the next (big) patch (if the mod team is still willing to invest time and energy - I dont take that for granted).

But its one thing to come to the conclusion that BG sucks and another one to have reasonable ideas to improve it. Pls use this threat to post your own ideas, maybe we can inspire the mod team.

Here's my idea:
Switch Luchs and FlakHt
- Moving the Luchs to BG would make the tech structure instantly more attractive. In contrast to the FlakHt the Luchs can operate on its own. The FlakHt would also fit well to Mechanized because, well its a mechanized unit and it would have decent synergy with the Puma.
- This change could also be done easily and would not require much work. To prevent timing issues the fuel cost of the Luchs and FlakHT should be adjusted.

I just want to remind us that USF also got a tech rework, Stuart and USFlakHt were switched, so there is no reason why we can not test this at least.

The combination of healing+Leig+Luchs would certainly make BG more attractive and OKW games not as stale. Right now its really boring to see the same strategy in every game because OKW players dont have a real alternative.

Edit:
Other ideas:
- Lower the FRW nerfs:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105689/making-okw-battlegroup-viable/post/824030
- OKW sniper in BG (same timing like Brit sniper)
- Move a doctrinal unit to BG (like the Airlanding officer for Brits)
- Pak40 buildable in BG

Out of all the switcheroos, this one is quite reasonable, however the cost of the tech would need to get even higher, because we REALLY do NOT need a 5 min luchs and I somehow do not see 90 fuel luchs.

Just delete OKW and be done with it.

Out of all the switcheroos, this one is quite reasonable, however the cost of the tech would need to get even higher, because we REALLY do NOT need a 5 min luchs and I somehow do not see 90 fuel luchs.

Yeah, you have a good point. Maybe it could work like the tech for the AEC: You need to unlock the Luchs first. That should help with the timing issue. Higher building time could also be an option.

Yeah, you have a good point. Maybe it could work like the tech for the AEC: You need to unlock the Luchs first. That should help with the timing issue. Higher building time could also be an option.

It already got high build time because it was arriving too fast in mechanized.

I really like Stormjagers idea and would love to see a similar fix applied to Ostheer

But trying to think of some alternatives:

Lower the FRP nerfs: Massive reinforcement speed decrease, lock behind T4 and half an hour of cooldown after canceling. All these three together are just an overkill. Say what u want, but FRPs and outside of base HQ are supposed to be highly viable (of course not if u try to plant it right on top of the frontline).

The cooldown after deactivation should be lowered to 0,5-1 min, and/or the reinforcement speed decrease should be less severe, by one or two secs

Im not sure what to improve about the units it offers though. Kinda like the OPs idea of Luchs and Flak HT swap, assuming the Luchs would get a free unlock with like 30-45 secs to delay it

If one goes follow that path can lock PzII behind medics for start.

But trying to think of some alternatives:
Lower the FRP nerfs:

The cooldown after deactivation should be lowered to 0,5-1 min, and/or the reinforcement speed decrease should be less severe, by one or two secs

Im not sure what to improve about the units it offers though. Kinda like the OPs idea of Luchs and Flak HT swap, assuming the Luchs would get a free unlock with like 30-45 secs to delay it

I like this idea, Im honest I've forgot that this ability still exists
Will edit my original post and include this idea

Here's my idea:
Switch Luchs and FlakHt
- Moving the Luchs to BG would make the tech structure instantly more attractive. In contrast to the FlakHt the Luchs can operate on its own. The FlakHt would also fit well to Mechanized because, well its a mechanized unit and it would have decent synergy with the Puma.
- This change could also be done easily and would not require much work. To prevent timing issues the fuel cost of the Luchs and FlakHT should be adjusted.

I just want to remind us that USF also got a tech rework, Stuart and USFlakHt were switched, so there is no reason why we can not test this at least.

The combination of healing+Leig+Luchs would certainly make BG more attractive and OKW games not as stale. Right now its really boring to see the same strategy in every game because OKW players dont have a real alternative.

I dont think that changes anything in 2vs2 and higher. Nobody goes mechanized for the luchs.
Atm OKW relies heavily on the puma and the stuka to be competitive. The flak ht dies too fast and is therefore too much of a micro burden.
You probably have to move stuka into Schwerer Panzer Headquarters and give Battlegroup Headquarters a reliable counter for light vehicles/tanks to make both tech structures equally good (more like equally bad).

Stuka zu fuss is simply too good

I dont think that changes anything in 2vs2 and higher. Nobody goes mechanized for the luchs.
Atm OKW relies heavily on the puma and the stuka to be competitive. The flak ht dies too fast and is therefore too much of a micro burden.
You probably have to move stuka into Schwerer Panzer Headquarters and give Battlegroup Headquarters a reliable counter for light vehicles/tanks to make both tech structures equally good (more like equally bad).

I absolutely agree that nobody goes Mechanized for the Luchs. But isnt that a really good reason to move the unit?
Besides that you're also right about the importance of the Puma.
But I refuse to believe that there no reasonable ideas to make BG viable. We havent even tried to do change something meaningful and that is what drives me crazy.
- Switch Luchs/FlakHt and see how it works out.
- Add a sniper to BG and see how it works out.
- Rework the FRP mechanic etc.
If ideas dont work out, fine, but lets try it out before! Thats why I would like to see some bold moves from the mod team.
There is absolutely nothing to lose.

Stuka zu fuss is simply too good

Only at things that it shouldnt do, such as wiping lone squads that are dodging it, or instantly decrewing vetted support weapons from max range

At countering blobs its laughably bad

Battlegroup is usually more viable than Mechanized in 3v3 and 4v4, lets you rush for obers and tanks + FRP on larger maps.

We've tried minor changes to try to nudge Battlegroup a bit more in the right direction, however even though it has seen a bit more use, Mechanized still remains dominant in 1v1s and 2v2s. Battlegroup starts are quite viable in 3v3s and 4v4s however and it's used very often.

I don't think switching the Luchs with the 251/17 would do much other than risk making OKW worse, because the real reason for Mechanized picks is the Puma. Because even with all the changes to the Raketen (and the Pak 40), it has turned out to remain the only reliable counter to Allied lights in 1v1 and 2v2.


So purely for speculation (chance to get bigger changes implemented becomes ever smaller) here's my opinion on this: nothing will change the dominance of the Puma in the teching choice (in those two game modes). Mechanized will always stay meta with OKW's current faction roster and tech layout. However, one thing we could do is to make their tech less rigid so that it's easier to back-tech. Getting Battlegroup for just an ISG or healing is ridiculously expensive at 40-55 fuel. So what could be done is splitting up the Battlegroup like what was done with USF's middle techs;
- Cost of Battlegroup from 200/25 to ~50/5;
- Now only unlocks the medic upgrade (still 100/15, maybe move it down to 10) and the ISG;
- Add upgrade for 150/20 that unlocks reinforcing, the Flak HT, the Uhu and access to the FRP upgrade;
- T4 and Tiger II require a fully upgraded Battlegroup.

That would significantly reduce the cost of backteching for indirect fire and healing (from 370/40-55 to 120/20-220-35) which is more in line with other factions. It also has the added benefit of making the ISG available significantly faster which would help OKW on garrison or lane heavy maps (mostly in teamgames) where their early game is really bad against HMGs.


Something similar could be done to Mechanized so that backteching for the repair automatrons gets a lot cheaper, but I'm not sure if that's really needed.

I would say if the Luchs was added to Battlegroup, it would probably need a slight fuel increase to 65 or the truck would at least need to made more expensive. Maybe it could cost 40 fuel plus the 15 for the SwS truck. Luchs timing would be slightly faster than before but you wouldn't have the Puma to help deal with counters to the Luchs so it would be a tradeoff. Maybe if the truck got an increase in price, it could come with medics automatically. FRP could probably be slightly reduced in cost to 250 mp or so. But what Sander said actually wouldn't be bad either to have it as a support truck to backtech to.

Putting Luchs into T1 would still not make it viable because the reason you go Mechanized is Stuka + Puma which are the strongest part of OKW's mid-game. I don't even think the Luchs is a better unit than the Flak HT because both units get hard countered by AEC and Stuart so neither can do anything on their own. The Luchs as it is now doesn't have enough lethality to justify the babysitting it needs. At least the Flak HT offers great reward for good unit composition and micro. If it survives you still have great AA for late game and a unit that can cover your flanks against infantry.

+1

Add additional vehicle tier upgrade to the BG that is required to to be teched in order to build luchs and the IR halftrack.

Doing this instead of giving luchs itself a crazy build time we can still achieve the same balanced first timing / cost that we want.

If we give luchs ridiculous build time and cost instead, we effectively kill any viable chance of rebuilding one ever.

EDIT: Or we can just put the BG vehicles availability behind the already existing medics upgrade instead of coming up with stuff

Thx for your responses, guys. As I already wrote above, I just think we should at least try some new stuff, there are also other ways to improve BG. Even "wild ideas" should be tried.
Lets just continue the good discussion here, there are consructive posts and feedback.