Nothing like trying to rush it to counter a fast Sniper, only to realize you have one chance to run it down, before a 222 arrives and stick to it like Glue.
If you could dismount the crew to lay down the Mines, it would see some use but now, if you want an ultralight that goes well with the Stuart, the Toilet Truck is a much better option.
USF M20 dead?
5 Jun 2020, 21:24 PM
#41
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
5 Jun 2020, 21:58 PM
#42
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
M20 is actually a great vehicle.
40 range, 50 sight, great mobility great vet bonuses including x120% sight and a total x145 DPS and range of 50.
The unit is simply victim of the trend to make powerful unit earlier. I would actually benefit allot if the 221 was reintroduced and 222 was delayed.
40 range, 50 sight, great mobility great vet bonuses including x120% sight and a total x145 DPS and range of 50.
The unit is simply victim of the trend to make powerful unit earlier. I would actually benefit allot if the 221 was reintroduced and 222 was delayed.
6 Jun 2020, 07:06 AM
#43
Posts: 479
I think the M20 just simply comes too late to have any decent window except for if OKW goes for the Luchs but even then the problem tends to be that its too fragile without the skirts dying in two fausts I believe. I think if skirts were slightly cheaper or even came with the M20 or were free but just required the upgrade maybe you could squeeze a little more of the slim window it has, or would at least save some muni to go towards Zooks/Bars. Although I would probably like to see a slight nerf to the 50 cal to compensate as LT is widely considered to be prefered in 1v1 although I like Captain in the Ostheer matchup. Issue is making the 222 come later would make life even rougher against USF and Brits with AEC/AAHT/Stuart all having good timings.
6 Jun 2020, 09:21 AM
#44
Posts: 26
I think it's a combination of Axis meta and M20 being outperformed by WC51 and 50 cal.
M20 is great against snipers, but every Ost goes for Osttruppen + Pgrens so you don't need M20. Ost also ofter has quick 222, and OKW goes for Luchs which counter M20.
If you want a early game anti inf vehicle, why would you build M20 instead of WC51? Their anti inf performance is pretty much the same (including the 40 range for whatever reason...) so the only thing m20 has is the mine. But what do you need the mine for? Use the muni for a zook and Stuart + 50 cal + zook RE can handle any Axis vehicle lighter than a P4.
And why would you build M20 instead of 50 cal as the first unit after Lt? 50 cal does not cost fuel and is useful the entire game.
1v1 USF usually goes for Lt, so just buffing M20 would be pretty silly.
M20 is great against snipers, but every Ost goes for Osttruppen + Pgrens so you don't need M20. Ost also ofter has quick 222, and OKW goes for Luchs which counter M20.
If you want a early game anti inf vehicle, why would you build M20 instead of WC51? Their anti inf performance is pretty much the same (including the 40 range for whatever reason...) so the only thing m20 has is the mine. But what do you need the mine for? Use the muni for a zook and Stuart + 50 cal + zook RE can handle any Axis vehicle lighter than a P4.
And why would you build M20 instead of 50 cal as the first unit after Lt? 50 cal does not cost fuel and is useful the entire game.
1v1 USF usually goes for Lt, so just buffing M20 would be pretty silly.
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6 Jun 2020, 11:19 AM
#45
Posts: 1351
If the game was slower, there would be more/longer opportunity widows for, for example, different types of light vehicles. At the game current pacing (which is perfect imo for 1v1 - matches lengths from 20min to 1 hour) there simply can't be more transitions from one battle stage to another. I'm not really into larger game modes but it seems that slowing down those initial stages there could be a valid solution affecting units such as m20. In those larger modes last game stage comes relatively quickly making the life of a light vehicle really tough (even tougher when combined with greater unit density per square meter).
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6 Jun 2020, 15:21 PM
#46
Posts: 658
M20 Vet
Vet 1: +20% sight range.
+10% accuracy.
Vet 2: +20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+30% ac/de-celeration.
+15% accuracy.
Vet 3: +50% penetration.
+12.5% range of fire.
+15% accuracy.
+40% stealth detection radius.
+38% planting speed of M6 mines.
The Vet 3 +50% Penetration should be made baseline as the only thing its useful for is against the 222 and would probably still lose vs the 222 even with that change but at least it wont be such an extremely 1 sided loss.
Vet 1: +20% sight range.
+10% accuracy.
Vet 2: +20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+30% ac/de-celeration.
+15% accuracy.
Vet 3: +50% penetration.
+12.5% range of fire.
+15% accuracy.
+40% stealth detection radius.
+38% planting speed of M6 mines.
The Vet 3 +50% Penetration should be made baseline as the only thing its useful for is against the 222 and would probably still lose vs the 222 even with that change but at least it wont be such an extremely 1 sided loss.
6 Jun 2020, 17:07 PM
#47
Posts: 600
M20 Vet
Vet 1: +20% sight range.
+10% accuracy.
Vet 2: +20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+30% ac/de-celeration.
+15% accuracy.
Vet 3: +50% penetration.
+12.5% range of fire.
+15% accuracy.
+40% stealth detection radius.
+38% planting speed of M6 mines.
The Vet 3 +50% Penetration should be made baseline as the only thing its useful for is against the 222 and would probably still lose vs the 222 even with that change but at least it wont be such an extremely 1 sided loss.
it still is an extremely one sided loss.
a vet 3 m20 loses to an unvetted scoutcar even if you place it its rear
6 Jun 2020, 17:10 PM
#48
Posts: 282
Why would it need to fight a 222? this is not its purpose.
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6 Jun 2020, 17:19 PM
#49
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Why would it need to fight a 222? this is not its purpose.
Why does it even have penetration vet?
There is no axis infantry with armor and it doesn't struggle vs kubel, all other lights wreck it.
Is that vet for 251?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Jun 2020, 21:01 PM
#50
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
The unit is simply victim of the trend to make powerful unit earlier. I would actually benefit allot if the 221 was reintroduced and 222 was delayed.
Yeah I agree with this. Also if you can get anything larger than a 222 to hit one of your mines chances are your m20 will more than pay for itself if you can secure that kill.
Even killing a 222 with one is a big swing, especially if your m20 is still alive
7 Jun 2020, 00:38 AM
#51
Posts: 658
it still is an extremely one sided loss.
a vet 3 m20 loses to an unvetted scoutcar even if you place it its rear
Yeah the M20 Penetration is
Far : 1
Mid : 2
Near : 3
The 50% Penetration is rather pointless.
The M2HB 50 Cal HMG has better penetration than the M20
Far : 5
Mid : 6
Near : 7
The 50 Cal HMG also benefits from the Armor Piercing Rounds ability which adds +25% damage, +10 penetration on top of that. Not Sure why the M20 weapon sucks so much in comparison especially when you are paying fuel for it.
7 Jun 2020, 01:22 AM
#52
Posts: 5279
Yeah I agree with this. Also if you can get anything larger than a 222 to hit one of your mines chances are your m20 will more than pay for itself if you can secure that kill.
Even killing a 222 with one is a big swing, especially if your m20 is still alive
the reintroduction of the 221 via okw shows it could work too. id like to see the 221 come back, but would the 222 upgrade be fuel, manpower or munitions?
#stalinwept
7 Jun 2020, 07:38 AM
#53
Posts: 282
Why does it even have penetration vet?
There is no axis infantry with armor and it doesn't struggle vs kubel, all other lights wreck it.
Is that vet for 251?
I hope the Stug.E heat shell isn't meant to turn it into a tank hunter then.
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7 Jun 2020, 07:39 AM
#54
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I hope the Stug.E heat shell isn't meant to turn it into a tank hunter then.
I'd label its functionality as 'escape' tool when med or aec shows up.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Jun 2020, 07:57 AM
#55
Posts: 282
I'd label its functionality as 'escape' tool when med or aec shows up.
Then I'd label the M20 pen vet as a tool to reinforce its support role by being able to dive in and finish LV which have been already damage by Zooks from nearby infantry. Which maybe was intended to work with its own zooks too.
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7 Jun 2020, 08:08 AM
#56
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Then I'd label the M20 pen vet as a tool to reinforce its support role by being able to dive in and finish LV which have been already damage by Zooks from nearby infantry. Which maybe was intended to work with its own zooks too.
You could, if it was as potent as incendiary rounds or even dshk ap ammo, which you know, actually deal damage to lights.
But it does literally nothing for any unit with more then 5 armor.
StuG-e TWP still does its job as advertised regardless if you like it or not and if you believe its an issue, feel free to make a thread about it instead of derailing this one.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Jun 2020, 08:50 AM
#57
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah the M20 Penetration is
Far : 1
Mid : 2
Near : 3
The 50% Penetration is rather pointless.
The M2HB 50 Cal HMG has better penetration than the M20
Far : 5
Mid : 6
Near : 7
The 50 Cal HMG also benefits from the Armor Piercing Rounds ability which adds +25% damage, +10 penetration on top of that. Not Sure why the M20 weapon sucks so much in comparison especially when you are paying fuel for it.
The same thing could be said about the hMG-34 with penetration 1.9/1.6/1.3 and 221 1.2/1/1.
And there is another reason, the 0.50's penetration was buffed before the USF tech rework to act as soft counter to light vehicles because LT root lacked AT tools at the time.
The M20's penetration bonus is not great but the unit already gets more vet bonuses than the average unit. One could even remove the penetration bonus and the unit would still get more than enough vet bonuses.
The unit cost efficient and any problem it might have has more to do with window of opportunity and pace of the game than anything else.
7 Jun 2020, 09:07 AM
#58
Posts: 282
You could, if it was as potent as incendiary rounds or even dshk ap ammo, which you know, actually deal damage to lights.
But it does literally nothing for any unit with more then 5 armor.
StuG-e TWP still does its job as advertised regardless if you like it or not and if you believe its an issue, feel free to make a thread about it instead of derailing this one.
Again, it is not meant to destroy them by firing at them like an mg, it's primarly role is to support infantry against infantry, doing the reco and putting mine. Plus the way amor/pen work, it still can penetrate a front 222. But asking it to be viable against a 222 is like asking the 222 to face AEC/T70/Stuart, the matchup is clear and anyone thinking the other way just don't understand the role,and the limitations which goes along,of the unit.
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7 Jun 2020, 09:11 AM
#59
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Again, it is not meant to destroy them by firing at them like an mg, it's primarly role is to support infantry against infantry, doing the reco and putting mine. Plus the way amor/pen work, it still can penetrate a front 222. But asking it to be viable against a 222 is like asking the 222 to face AEC/T70/Stuart, the matchup is clear and anyone thinking the other way just don't understand the role,and the limitations which goes along,of the unit.
True
It is already beats vs 221/223 that has similar timing and cost and has little reason to beat the 222.
7 Jun 2020, 09:51 AM
#60
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
The same thing could be said about the hMG-34 with penetration 1.9/1.6/1.3 and 221 1.2/1/1.
221 CLEARLY does not get any pen vet.
HMG34, in case you have forgotten, incendiary rounds, TRIPPLES penetration and DOUBLES damage.
And there is another reason, the 0.50's penetration was buffed before the USF tech rework to act as soft counter to light vehicles because LT root lacked AT tools at the time.
Only LV that affects is kubel and now maybe OKW 221, which will be 223 by that time with much higher armor.
M20 with or without pen vet is irrelevant vs anything else.
The M20's penetration bonus is not great but the unit already gets more vet bonuses than the average unit. One could even remove the penetration bonus and the unit would still get more than enough vet bonuses.
222 got even more vet bonuses then M20 and it doesn't have token vet to fill the line and provide nothing meaningful in return.
The unit cost efficient and any problem it might have has more to do with window of opportunity and pace of the game than anything else.
The unit is NOT cost efficient, if it was, it would be used. On top of that, this one particular vet bonus serves no purpose, unless you can name a situation that does not involve kubel or 221 where it would change anything, it hardly matters if it will do 10 or 15 dmg to 222 before 222 kills it.
222 is cost efficient as its used and sometimes even rebuilt past its combat relevant phase.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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