Cost of handheld AT

I always wondered about the weird cost of handheld AT.

Performance (stats): Piat < Bazooka < Super Bazooka < Shrek

Cost: 50mun for Piat = Bazooka = Super Bazooka = Shrek in double package < 70 mun for single shrek with winter package

I just don't get this. It makes no sense. Piat should be cheaper than Bazooka, Super Bazooka should be more expensive than Bazooka and Shreks should cost even more.

I'm just sick of not able to playing flanking tanks (starts with 2vs2 and up) because there are this double-shrek / triple-Super-Bazooka squads lingering around, when you got your flank successfully. Building Panther/JPIV or allied TD for frontal longe range fights is so much more safe and boring. With Panzerfusiliers and Rangers it really got worse. The AT damage of those squads is insane (its roughly even), while still beeing 5-man-squads.

The good handheld AT (Super Bazooka / Shrek in double package) really should be more eypensive.

handheld At cant be generelized like that. Panzerschreck is defensive AT on expensive sqads. Rushing tanks with it is very risky and not that common vs a skilled player. Bazooka can be used more offensivly due to quick aim time (in comparison to pzschreck). Brits dont really need piat to be honest since they have snare and aec that can shutdown tenemy tanks. It is only used for the purpose of stopping tanks flanking your paks, where it performs quite decent. Changing the piat cost slightly woudnt really change anything in a skilled game and is therefore out of scope. (saving 20 mun for 2 piats has nearly no game impact)

Super bazookas are quite strong but they are mostly used on rangers only which again is an expensive sqad + 150 mun, making them the most expensive handheld at sqad

Bazooka can be used more offensivly due to quick aim time (in comparison to pzschreck).

Shrek an Bazooka have the same aim time (0.63). Shrek has higher reload (7,75 > 5,75). In fact Shrek is the more offensive weapon because it penetrates 95% of allied tanks that you will see on the field frontally, while the normal Bazooka has to flank a lot of axis tanks. Giving both weapons a higher aim time would fix a lot of problems and make them less offensive.

Brits dont really need piat to be honest since they have snare and aec that can shutdown tenemy tanks. It is only used for the purpose of stopping tanks flanking your paks, where it performs quite decent. Changing the piat cost slightly woudnt really change anything in a skilled game and is therefore out of scope. (saving 20 mun for 2 piats has nearly no game impact)

That brits have other units for AT is no excuse for making another unit overpriced. Btw. 20 mun is 2/3 on your way to an additional mine! A single mine can do a hell of a difference.

Super bazookas are quite strong but they are mostly used on rangers only which again is an expensive sqad + 150 mun, making them the most expensive handheld at sqad

Yeah at least it is 150mun and not 100 like the discount you get at the double shrek package.

I feel like the panzer schreck needs to be made a bigger investment since it has by far the most damage

I always wondered about the weird cost of handheld AT.

Performance (stats): Piat < Bazooka < Super Bazooka < Shrek

Cost: 50mun for Piat = Bazooka = Super Bazooka = Shrek in double package < 70 mun for single shrek with winter package

I just don't get this. It makes no sense. Piat should be cheaper than Bazooka, Super Bazooka should be more expensive than Bazooka and Shreks should cost even more.
...

It seem a bit arbitrary but there reason for it:

Piat has 100 damage Bazooka has 80

Super bazookas are superior for the same price so that one has a reason to give them to elite infatry instead of the cheap RE

Shcerk ARE more expensive they simply get a discount on Pg/PF as many other many other things because they are purchased in a bundle.

First of all, heavy handheld AT weapons should not be distributed to squads with low received accuracy. It takes ages to kill Rangers/PG with small arms fire and trying to kite and poke them with tanks is just too risky and micro consuming. I'd rather have Grens have access to PSchreck upgrade than PG, upgrade would disable faust though. I would also have doctrines with Rangers/Paras allow them to equip just normal bazookas and give the Super Bazooka bonus to echelons as they would only be able to equip 2 of them and their squad size, received acc and reinforcement cost makes them no more powerful than Panzerfusilier with PSchrecks and takes away the insane alpha strike from Rangers. I see no problems with Piats on Brits.

Also give piats/bazookas/pschrecks an option to target vehicles only (like ATG). Firing all handheld AT at infantry (except for PTRS or Boys) makes very little sense with how the game is designed and creates a lot of unnecessary smoke and dust that makes it difficult to see incoming grenades.

It's not a big deal but it's super annoying in teamgames to have to fight around Pschreck blobs when you have fuel advantage and can't benefit from your mediums and your conscripts take ages to kill the PGs. This happens the most on medium-low ELO I think.

Edit: I think cost is fine.

It seem a bit arbitrary but there reason for it:

Piat has 100 damage Bazooka has 80

Super bazookas are superior for the same price so that one has a reason to give them to elite infatry instead of the cheap RE

Shcerk ARE more expensive they simply get a discount on Pg/PF as many other many other things because they are purchased in a bundle.

Pretty sure that's not the whole damge story. Schrecks also have real penetration numbers, so aren't totally reliant on deflects vs medium armor.zooks have crappy pen.

But yes, you're right. Zooks are worse and buyable individually, but suck if not Super Zooks, which are a real deal.

The only thing I am not fine with is the performance of PIATs and single Schrecks . Either cost should go down or there should be some minor buff to the weapon or squad using it.

The bazooka/elite/Schreck balance is in a good place at the moment in my opinion both cost and timing-wise

It seem a bit arbitrary but there reason for it:

Piat has 100 damage Bazooka has 80

Super bazookas are superior for the same price so that one has a reason to give them to elite infatry instead of the cheap RE

Shcerk ARE more expensive they simply get a discount on Pg/PF as many other many other things because they are purchased in a bundle.

The problem only gets worse when you have Super Bazooka and Shrek on elite infantry with high received accuracy. it would be far better, when squishy four man Rear Echelons / Grenadiers with next to no AI capability left after upgrade would have them (-> BlueKnight already proposed that).

About the discount: Then make a 70mun double bren upgrade for IS, or a 110mun triple Super Bazooka upgrade for Rangers. You know what? That would be hilarious, i really don't want that. Because it makes absolutely no sense, that it is cheaper when you buy it at once instead of one after another. But having to pay 100mun for 2x single piat or 2x single bazooka, the same as you have to pay at PGs or panzerfusiliers for double Shrek is hilarious in the same way.

The problem only gets worse when you have Super Bazooka and Shrek on elite infantry with high received accuracy. it would be far better, when squishy four man Rear Echelons / Grenadiers with next to no AI capability left after upgrade would have them (-> BlueKnight already proposed that).

About the discount: Then make a 70mun double bren upgrade for IS, or a 110mun triple Super Bazooka upgrade for Rangers. You know what? That would be hilarious, i really don't want that. Because it makes absolutely no sense, that it is cheaper when you buy it at once instead of one after another. But having to pay 100mun for 2x single piat or 2x single bazooka, the same as you have to pay at PGs or panzerfusiliers for double Shrek is hilarious in the same way.

There is more to getting weapon upgrades then just plain performance of the weapons. OST has to put them on an expensive squad that afterwards looses most of their shock potential and is fragile due to being 4 men. There is a real trade off for that. USF can put them on Echolons which is a straight upgrade in almost every situation or get them on a 5 men squad with snare. Now Panzerfüsiliers are also 5 men, but to be honest I never had any trouble with them because the upgrade allows for a clear weakness as well. And on top of that, the faction and availability to muni should also be taken into account.

The problem only gets worse when you have Super Bazooka and Shrek on elite infantry with high received accuracy. it would be far better, when squishy four man Rear Echelons / Grenadiers with next to no AI capability left after upgrade would have them (-> BlueKnight already proposed that).

About the discount: Then make a 70mun double bren upgrade for IS, or a 110mun triple Super Bazooka upgrade for Rangers. You know what? That would be hilarious, i really don't want that. Because it makes absolutely no sense, that it is cheaper when you buy it at once instead of one after another. But having to pay 100mun for 2x single piat or 2x single bazooka, the same as you have to pay at PGs or panzerfusiliers for double Shrek is hilarious in the same way.

I am not defending the logic but I am explaining it.

Keep in mind that being able to buy AT weapons individually has a great bonus, flexibility:
First you start with squad that has no AT and all of it AI.
When light vehicles appear one can transcend to a single AT weapon not kill the light vehicles but to avoid being bullied it but while retaining decent AI.
When tank appear one can go full AT and relay on his own vehicles for AI.

So one pays for this flexibility.

Pretty sure that's not the whole damge story.

Just explaining one advantage piats have over bazookas since general_gawain seem to think bazooka is better than Piat.

Now Panzerfüsiliers are also 5 men, but to be honest I never had any trouble with them because the upgrade allows for a clear weakness as well. And on top of that, the faction and availability to muni should also be taken into account.

As I said in the beginning the real problems mainly starts with 2vs2 and get worse after that. As far as I know, OKW gets the mun from the caches that Ostheer mate builds... so there is no difference then. Just double shrek on five man squad in a pretty good doctrine.

As I said in the beginning the real problems mainly starts with 2vs2 and get worse after that. As far as I know, OKW gets the mun from the caches that Ostheer mate builds... so there is no difference then. Just double shrek on five man squad in a pretty good doctrine.

I mainly play 2v2 and 3v3 as well and rarely encounter Schreck blob problems. This might be quite rank dependend (not that I was high rank though)
As I said, Panzerfüsiliere are a bit of a different thing. I don't think that they are misplaced though since both Axis factions pay a lot of opportunity costs. As USF/USK you can dump AT on your pioneer squads to make them more usable. Also their popcap is quite cheap and they are cheap to build which allows you to have two of them running around in the late game anyway since you need them for repairs which makes them not bleed as much. Pfussiliere and PGrens are both comparatively expensive and you cannot spam them without sacrificing infantry field presence. They are the mainline infantry and usually used to contest points against Allied infantry in the mid to late game. But using them with Schrecks takes away most of their AI capability. Pfussies scale badly without their G43s against infantry, while the combat power of PGrens gets literally halved. Getting bazooka/PIATs on the respective engineer unit however does not cost you much. Also both of them do not have snares.

So to sum it up: I agree that Axis get 'cheap' PSchrecks when just looking at the stats, but I think it is fair because of higher costs in the AI departement, population and having less flexibility. At least compared with bazookas. As I already said, PIATs could use a bit of a rework.

Axis shreks are a non issue because with the exception of fussies they are on expensive 4 man squads meaning they pay in blood for the power. Piats and zooks Alcan all be on cheap 5 man squads and in the case of Zook, if put on expensive squads they get a better version (this is a good design) shreks start out on an elite squad so they start out "super"

I would like to point out Pgren shrek blobs can certainly be used "offensively"

Blob three squads together with a doctrinal sprint ability and watch as they terrorize even premium meds.

I actually warned about fussies double shreks too but they turned out ironically to be weaker than the more expensive pgren+sprint wombocombo blob volley

It's like Napoleonic musket volleys but with rockets

About the discount: Then make a 70mun double bren upgrade for IS, or a 110mun triple Super Bazooka upgrade for Rangers. You know what? That would be hilarious, i really don't want that. Because it makes absolutely no sense, that it is cheaper when you buy it at once instead of one after another. But having to pay 100mun for 2x single piat or 2x single bazooka, the same as you have to pay at PGs or panzerfusiliers for double Shrek is hilarious in the same way.

Are you bargaining a bren buff because shreks are bundled to an elite infantry and NO OTHER INFANTRY CAN GET IT STOCK? Srlsy? Not even grens or volks can stack up snare+AT but poor man R.E. can do it and no one points that out.

Pgren lose 50% of their AI potential to get a couple of "bundled" shreks. Unless you see pgren that can stow away their AT like sturmpios do with minesweepers, the AI lost is part of the cost. No axis unit have weapon racks to "choose" wether to pick 1 or 2 "bundleshreks" so thats a big fallacy there.

Are you bargaining a bren buff because shreks are bundled to an elite infantry and NO OTHER INFANTRY CAN GET IT STOCK? Srlsy? Not even grens or volks can stack up snare+AT but poor man R.E. can do it and no one points that out.

I repeat myself and highlight the most interesting part: "Then make a 70mun double bren upgrade for IS, or a 110mun triple Super Bazooka upgrade for Rangers. You know what? That would be hilarious, i really don't want that."

-> So no, I don't want a bren buff, I just said that bundles shouldn't be cheaper.
-> About the R.E. thing: Man they are carrying PIATs for 50mun each. Lets repeat it: PIATs. That alone should be bad enough already. In addition their not that elite (like Rangers/Pzgrens), and will go down more quickly in firefights.

Pgren lose 50% of their AI potential to get a couple of "bundled" shreks. Unless you see pgren that can stow away their AT like sturmpios do with minesweepers, the AI lost is part of the cost. No axis unit have weapon racks to "choose" wether to pick 1 or 2 "bundleshreks" so thats a big fallacy there.

-> Rangers loose even more than 1/2 of their AI power to have roughly the same AT peformance with triple Super Bazooka as Panzergrenadiers/Panzerfusiliers have with double Shrek. And they pay a lot more for it. Still it is not okay! If the counter is so powerful plus so much more easy to play than the unit that gets countered by it that is nuts. A pak is completely fair. It clearly can't hold its ground on its own and it can be circumvented by tanks, the unit it is meant to counter. You needs foresight/recon and suporting units and you can't retreat it with the exception of raketen of course.

By comparison: What is so tactical about putting 2-3 double-shreks or Rangers with Super Bazooka together? You just a-move them where you need them. And if you really got them in a fucked up situation just hit the retreat button and bring them back.

Triple super zook has more power than a double shrek pgren. It's also 5 men meaning less risk of a wipe. Pgrens are powerful but a number of factors make them risky as well as expensive. They are fine

Triple super zoom has more power than a double shrek pgren. It's also 5 men meaning less risk of a wipe. Pgrens are powerful but a number of factors make them risky as well as expensive. They are fine

You have 5 men at Panzerfusiliers too.

Given the fact that a single Shrek deals more damage than a single super bazooka (120>100) and that it is more likely to penetrate because of more penetration at all ranges and the common rule that allied medium tanks have commonly lower armor values, I would say - Yes, double shrek is roughly comporable with triple super bazooka in its outcome.

Triple Super Bazooka is only better when the armor of the target is so low, that all three super bazookas automatically penetrate.

You have 5 men at Panzerfusiliers too.

Given the fact that a single Shrek deals more damage than a single super bazooka (120>100) and that it is more likely to penetrate because of more penetration at all ranges and the common rule that allied medium tanks have commonly lower armor values, I would say - Yes, double shrek is roughly comporable with triple super bazooka in its outcome.

Triple Super Bazooka is only better when the armor of the target is so low, that all three super bazookas automatically penetrate.

Fussies do also exist, and they are the exception. You don't base balance around exception you either accept them or you balance them.

Elite zooks also get increased pen than normal zooks and retain their rof. I'd argue a super zook as roughly equal to a shrek. It's less reliable but has more potential. Additionally super zooks are on more durable squads meaning even though they are less capable of penning they will stick around longer and shoot more on top of already simply shooting more. No good axis player is going to gamble a dive through super zooks any more than an allied player would shreks.