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russian armor

Ostruppen cover mechanic is horrible design

22 May 2020, 13:48 PM
#21
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

They are perfectly designed, because compared to IS, they are an alternative option, not the ONLY option.

If you want a unit which is better as an assault unit or on the move, you use G43 Grens, 5man Grens, Assault Grenadiers or PG.

It has nothing to do with assault or moving, it has everything to do with cover making them the only infantry that doesn't exist until they touch a bush. I think it could be toned down.
22 May 2020, 13:52 PM
#22
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


It has nothing to do with assault or moving, it has everything to do with cover making them the only infantry that doesn't exist until they touch a bush. I think it could be toned down.

Its a defensive meat shield infantry.
There is no reason for them to not be in cover.
You can't expect 200mp 6 man mainline to do much.
Plus its not like you can't build cover for/by them.
They have all the tools they need to function well and well they do function, now scaling even better into late game thanks to lower reinforcement buff at T4.
22 May 2020, 14:33 PM
#23
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


It has nothing to do with assault or moving, it has everything to do with cover making them the only infantry that doesn't exist until they touch a bush. I think it could be toned down.


They can still cap, build and act as a snare unit. There is no reason for them to be on the assault or outside cover.


There are plenty of units in the game which if they are not using cover, they lose most of it's power. Snipers get's focused easily. Ambush units leave too much to be desired if they couldn't cammo.


NOT ALL UNITS are meant to be SUITED FOR ALL PLAYERS, specially doctrinal ones. This seems to be the case of a unit which doesn't click for you and you hope to change it in detriment of most of the players who actually use them.
22 May 2020, 15:28 PM
#24
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

Leave them as they are.
22 May 2020, 17:38 PM
#25
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

I guess the biggest problem here is the fact that unit descriptions are sth that should be looked at. Certain frustrations can be easily avoided if unit descriptions suggested more clearly how a unit functions. "They are better in cover" simply is not enough, as it really sugggests that a unit is just better, not completely useless out of it. If it was acknowledged in a unit description players wouldn't find them "wrong" somehow. The decription might look like this: Inexperienced infantry that has very low performance when not in cover. Generally unit descriptions could be updated as I feel that it would help the game even more than patches.
22 May 2020, 18:01 PM
#26
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

Generally unit descriptions could be updated as I feel that it would help the game even more than patches.

I agree, but the problem is most likely the volume of translation that needs to be done for different languages.
22 May 2020, 19:05 PM
#27
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


I agree, but the problem is most likely the volume of translation that needs to be done for different languages.

Yeah, but my gut feeling is that if descriptions were right/better the game would become all time classic/best rts ever. When a player is new to it, they have certain expectations about units performance (kind of your understanding of how weapons and war in general work lets say). Once, for example, they use an mg on a closing in squad and no models drop dead, a new player might be really baffled and even frustrated. It is just an example. Anyway, if the description specified, for example, that mgs pin rather than kill, a player would not be frustrated. It works similarly with many other weapons (big guns don't make infantry lose health/models (at tanks), etc. Descriptions that are not too complicated but specify such things could make many more players love the game imo.
22 May 2020, 19:21 PM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

I guess one could add the icon UKF infatry to the portraits indicating cover status. I would also make it more consistent.
22 May 2020, 19:46 PM
#29
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2020, 07:48 AMKatitof
Its a 200mp mainline infantry.
They are cheaper then partisans and fight incomparably better, while also scaling decently well into late game with their vet and upgrade.
You can count on osttruppen.

No really, you can.


It has nothing to do with assault or moving, it has everything to do with cover making them the only infantry that doesn't exist until they touch a bush. I think it could be toned down.

Good thing you have two other types of nondoc infantry to use if you need to actually attack something.
22 May 2020, 21:07 PM
#30
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Ostroppen are fine. They certainly don't need to be made into shitty cons or uninteresting attack move horde infantry. Use them as they are designed and they are more than fine.
22 May 2020, 21:14 PM
#31
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

The ostruppen Lmg42 upgrade is a meme peashooter. Even if you would make it 30munies it still is pepehands tier upgrade that is barely noticeable. At the point when you get to T4 Allied vet3 infantry is just walking all over you anyways.

Just remove the meme Lmg42 and give these accountable bois 7th man upgrade unlockable at t4.
22 May 2020, 21:22 PM
#32
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

The ostruppen Lmg42 upgrade is a meme peashooter. Even if you would make it 30munies it still is pepehands tier upgrade that is barely noticeable. At the point when you get to T4 Allied vet3 infantry is just walking all over you anyways.

Just remove the meme Lmg42 and give these accountable bois 7th man upgrade unlockable at t4.

Do you think the vet 3 allied infantry are walking all over ostroppen because they are significantly more expensive? Like cons are 20% more, rifles and Tommie are 40% more penals are 50% more... Is it possible that that might be a factor? Like I've noticed That a vet 3 Panther will beat the shit out of a Sherman and I can't for the life of me figure out why, maybe if you can figure out this ostroppen being beaten by units vastly more expensive with their maximum vet you could help me out with this one?
22 May 2020, 21:23 PM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

The ostruppen Lmg42 upgrade is a meme peashooter. Even if you would make it 30munies it still is pepehands tier upgrade that is barely noticeable. At the point when you get to T4 Allied vet3 infantry is just walking all over you anyways.

Just remove the meme Lmg42 and give these accountable bois 7th man upgrade unlockable at t4.

It costs 75% of gren LMG42 and has 75% of gren LMG42 DPS in cover.
22 May 2020, 21:27 PM
#34
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177


Do you think the vet 3 allied infantry are walking all over ostroppen because they are significantly more expensive? Like cons are 20% more, rifles and Tommie are 40% more penals are 50% more... Is it possible that that might be a factor? Like I've noticed That a vet 3 Panther will beat the shit out of a Sherman and I can't for the life of me figure out why, maybe if you can figure out this ostroppen being beaten by units vastly more expensive with their maximum vet you could help me out with this one?


I should have pointed out that my issue was not with the cost effectiveness of OStruppen as you here implied but rather that in my opinion the long range LMG does not scale well with ostruppen. I have no issue with ostruppen as they are. I think another upgrade option would be more effective and better in line with the theme of this second hand unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2020, 21:23 PMKatitof

It costs 75% of gren LMG42 and has 75% of gren LMG42 DPS in cover.


I stand corrected. I remembered them being 60 munies for some reason.

I still think thematically and from late game game-play standpoint a 7 man squad or some other upgrade would be better suited for this squad.
22 May 2020, 22:10 PM
#35
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2020, 21:23 PMKatitof

It costs 75% of gren LMG42 and has 75% of gren LMG42 DPS in cover.


They have 50% of gren LMG42 dps in and out of cover, like I've often mentioned before.

Honestly, they should just make the upgrade 60 muni, but also let it remove the out of cover debuff for the kars, because it's a pain to always keep them in cover in the lategame, while their effectiveness has sharply dropped off by then (facing 7 men Cons, double BAR riflemen and elites and the like).
23 May 2020, 03:08 AM
#36
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I should have pointed out that my issue was not with the cost effectiveness of OStruppen as you here implied but rather that in my opinion the long range LMG does not scale well with ostruppen. I have no issue with ostruppen as they are. I think another upgrade option would be more effective and better in line with the theme of this second hand unit.

The LMG works fine because it adds concentrated DPS on a unit that has a lot of models to drop meaning even though it's only 75% the damage of a gren lmg it lasts 50% longer on a 40mp cheaper unit with an upgrade that costs 3/4 the price of a gren lmg. They are not on the caliber of vetted, significantly more expensive allied infantry, but the will help hold ground with support.
23 May 2020, 06:38 AM
#37
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

It's 50% the dps of a Gren LMG. Here's how it works:

- They always have a 50% accuracy penalty for all weapons they use.
- In cover they get a 300% accuracy bonus solely for their Kar98k's.
23 May 2020, 07:37 AM
#38
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

It's 50% the dps of a Gren LMG. Here's how it works:

- They always have a 50% accuracy penalty for all weapons they use.
- In cover they get a 300% accuracy bonus solely for their Kar98k's.

This mechanism imo would be a great way to fix issues with drop able weapons and with racks.

Currently pick up certain weapon is a reduces the DSPs of certain units.

By expanding this mechanism of different modifiers to picked up weapons to more units one could adjust the performance of a weapons to the unit is using it.
23 May 2020, 09:15 AM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



They have 50% of gren LMG42 dps in and out of cover, like I've often mentioned before.

Honestly, they should just make the upgrade 60 muni, but also let it remove the out of cover debuff for the kars, because it's a pain to always keep them in cover in the lategame, while their effectiveness has sharply dropped off by then (facing 7 men Cons, double BAR riflemen and elites and the like).

50% out of cover, 75% in cover.
It's 50% the dps of a Gren LMG. Here's how it works:

- They always have a 50% accuracy penalty for all weapons they use.
- In cover they get a 300% accuracy bonus solely for their Kar98k's.


23 May 2020, 14:27 PM
#40
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 09:15 AMKatitof

Osttruppen are receiving adjustments to allow weapons they pick up to scale better. Their LMG's price is also being adjusted to better match its value.

Slot weapons now benefit from partial application of the cover bonus: Out-of-cover: -50% accuracy; In-cover: -25% accuracy


Source?

- It's not mentioned in the changelog.
- They have identical performance in and out of cover when testing ingame.
- Can't find any proof of a modifier applying to their slot weapons in the mod tools.

If such a change was mentioned, it's a bug if it's not working.

Edit: found it in the december commander revamp changelog. I'll ask Miragefla if he can doublecheck if the modifier is there or not.
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