[Feuersturm] MP40 and Hetzer

No, they wouldn't.
They would be economical mess, completely messing up current muni to mp spending balance of okw.

Yes they would.

Neither AsIS nor Cav riflemen create a economical mess.

Because contrary to OKW, both brits and USF have 90-120 muni per squad investment possibilities and OKW does not.

While it is inconsequent for brits and USF, it would only lead to more nade or offmap spam for OKW due to saving muni on upgrades.

Because contrary to OKW, both brits and USF have 90-120 muni per squad investment possibilities and OKW does not.

While it is inconsequent for brits and USF, it would only lead to more nade or offmap spam for OKW due to saving muni on upgrades.

That sounds like such a dilemma to have.

Because contrary to OKW, both brits and USF have 90-120 muni per squad investment possibilities and OKW does not.

While it is inconsequent for brits and USF, it would only lead to more nade or offmap spam for OKW due to saving muni on upgrades.

We all are aware of the differences across factions.

You have simply failed to provide any cause and effect between these difference and an "economical mess" by making an upgrade to separate units in the same way sten become AsIS and was an improvement to the commander.

Surprisingly, I agree with Vipper.

Make the Mp40 & HE nade upgrade non-doc, and move MP44 & Flame Nade to Flame doctrine.

• I don't like the MP44 design, yes it's carefully balanced but it's a brainless, flavourless upgrade. With MP40 you have more strategic and tactical choices, by combing long-range & short range squads, both in individual firefights and overall army composition.
  
• Flame nade on mainline unit just disables garrisons... why remove such an important part of the game anytime OKW is in a game? For OST and SOV, flamer is a tough choice to delay sweeper, for UKF and USF incendiary tools come even later. For OKW, why not give LeiG flame rounds non-doc, then there will some space for garrison play in very early game (and until then, HE nade is semi-effective against garrisons).
  

For Hetzer, yes it should come slightly earlier. Flame doc is still a shitty doc, needs a buff.

Surprisingly, I agree with Vipper.

Make the Mp40 & HE nade upgrade non-doc, and move MP44 & Flame Nade to Flame doctrine.

• I don't like the MP44 design, yes it's carefully balanced but it's a brainless, flavourless upgrade. With MP40 you have more strategic and tactical choices, by combing long-range & short range squads, both in individual firefights and overall army composition.
  
• Flame nade on mainline unit just disables garrisons... why remove such an important part of the game anytime OKW is in a game? For OST and SOV, flamer is a tough choice to delay sweeper, for UKF and USF incendiary tools come even later. For OKW, why not give LeiG flame rounds non-doc, then there will some space for garrison play in very early game (and until then, HE nade is semi-effective against garrisons).
  

For Hetzer, yes it should come slightly earlier. Flame doc is still a shitty doc, needs a buff.

+1 indeed.

I don´t see how more than one mp40 squad would be any kind of beneficial except for the grenades. Obers are way too expensive and offer no snare to be a compensation for the lack of mid-long range battle. Unupgraded volks are already a pain in the a**

In the late game volks would be a massive muni bleed to get atleast something out of them. Not efficient enough.


I do agree on the flame nade part. It´s a no-brainer against weapon crews, but in my point of view it doesnt do much damage. It forces units to move - thats something, but allied mainline doesn´t have much of a problem with moving and shooting anyway.. Thats why if feel Stg are an allround-upgrade, it compensates for a normal grenade.


Edit: Hetzer has to be changed. it is rarely effective. Just against bad players that only blob. The timing would change that. A Hp decrease might be an interesting compensation.

Wouldn´t change much about it´s mobility tho. Especially not nerf that.

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What you are forgetting is volks don't have to carry the late game. They have obers. Just like the stgs shouldn't be hitting so soon because they have sturms. I agree a LATER stg wouldn't be a big a problem but I maintain the design of the upgrade is simply shit. Relic dedicated an entire game changing patch to weapons having range trade offs. If there IS a weapon that is good at all ranges it should be restricted to special units, like pgrens and falls. The trade off should be that dropping models hurts, not on the cheapest units a faction can field and also an upgrade that carries the best weapons over. It's poorly designed.

Buffing vet could be sufficient because again, volks armt the only thing you can field. An anvil doesn't work without a hammer. If volks weren't budget rifles they could look at getting vet 3 self heal back giving them incredible field control. You could possibly even look at linking it to tank requisitions + medics unlocked. Okw has tech more flexible than OST. Things could be tweaked with a tech progression. Things like 2 tiers or a tier and an upgrade could be used to fine tune Improvments. There's no reason for volks to not always be useful but in a faction with not 1 but 2 potent elite squads they don't need to be the punch of the army. Volks could have their weight on vet but still improve via tech.

As for mp40 volks not scaling, I disbelive that as well. The upgrade gives them reduced target size as well as smoke-something that is in short supply for OKW and would absolutely provide value and synergy within the faction. Hell having accessible smoke could even help sturms later on.

In regards to the 7 man being a flat upgrade I won't deny you that, however there is a drawback that isn't present in any other weapon upgrade around and that is requiring full tech to unlock. What's more, it's actually thematic to the unit AND reinforces their role without stepping on the roles of doctrinal units OR stock units.
If volks say had an upgrade that allowed them to fight more fiercely in friendly territory for example, even if it was a flat buff at least it keeps sturms and obers as unique entities and also gives volks an identity. There is a lot to play around with and a redesign could be a lot of fun once it's accepted that 2 min literally improve every combat Stat possible upgrade on cheap plentiful unit isn't a well designed upgrade.

I want more dynamic play from the faction that has the most units around. I want less "volks do literally everything you need infantry" and more mix/matching. More diversity is never a bad thing.

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First, volks do not currently carry the late game. There is a reason why double obers is extremely common, volks fit their needed role to a T-hold the line for obers to do damage. Second, there are absolutely units out there that have general purpose all range weapons and are not super elite uncommon units. Pretty much anything with semi automatics fits this description. And to be honest, even with the STGs, I'd say volks have more emphasis on long range anyway,just as pgrens have more emphasis on close range but are capable at long.

Your second paragraph ends with a statement that highlights why I think volks current niche is fine. OKW already has a specialist close range(sturmpio) and specialist long(ober). Giving volks mp40s steps on sturms toes. Ironically you can see an similar situation with I/R stgs. They are uncommonly purchased because volks already fit that combat niche, one that ober LMGs do not.

As for scaling, I already addressed this. The best comparison is to assault grenadiers who have sprint which is an excellent compliment to their weapon kit, have superior vet and can upgrade to 6 man in the late game which further boosts their scaling and they STILL dont scale that well. Smoke grenades are great but that doesnt change the fact that SMG units scale poorly. This is also notable with PPSH cons, though their superior recieved accuracy through vet and lower cost to begin with means they are at least better as a meat shield.


STGs are a no more brainless upgrade then BARs, LMG34, DP28, or 7man conscript. And I dont see how the fact 7 man comes late makes it any less brainless. Your argument is that the MP44s are a boring upgrade, how does their timing change that-or rather how does timing make the 7 man upgrade any more "interesting"? (Hint, it doesnt but it's no less necessary for it)

The other element is that if MP40 volks become a thing to have players choose between long range and short range, then K98 volks will need a substantial buff, and not just via vet. They will need either better combat stats out the gate, or reduced cost, or an upgrade that gives it to them (like that 7 man con upgrade) for the exact same reason cons recieved it-poor late game scaling for the basic bolt action mainline.
And even if this way is done, obers will be a better choice than k98 volks at all ranges, and sturms better then MP40 volks at all ranges. It's just a lose lose.

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The other element is that if MP40 volks become a thing to have players choose between long range and short range, then K98 volks will need a substantial buff, and not just via vet. They will need either better combat stats out the gate, or reduced cost, or an upgrade that gives it to them (like that 7 man con upgrade) for the exact same reason cons recieved it-poor late game scaling for the basic bolt action mainline.
And even if this way is done, obers will be a better choice than k98 volks at all ranges, and sturms better then MP40 volks at all ranges. It's just a lose lose.

Agreed entirely with all the post, i am quoting the last part because i think the core point is there.

I do think that MP40 could be viable, but before i understand that the MP44 "brainless" (Im just picking the words to keep the context) is not a bad upgrade at all, its a better mid range upgrade binded to timing and munition avability. It fills better the wholes in the OKW rooster.

I agree that if MP40 becomes the stock upgrade for volks, their kars98 should receive any kind of buff to keep their scalability acceptable. Now, MP40 upgrade could become a new main feature for OKW, you could simply not upgrade volks and have a good and slow scaling or deliberately upgrade them into a less overall, more CQC oriented mainline that would probably vet up faster. Its a hurtful tradeoff but it should be worth it. The upgrade allows your Vet0 volks into CQC to have a better weapon profile early vs IS/cons/riflemen (although less likely) in exange for a mediocre weapon profile in midgame and so on. MP40 surely competes with sturmpios, but the latter are known to be very bad to trade in compared to volks. My point is that the player should decide wether to upgrade the MP40's or take the risk of having a standard volk to keep the medium range competitivity. Vetted volks should not "need" to get the MP40 pack.

Maybe adding another upgrade, like a "assault pack" upgrade that enables better grenades or some other specific mid range abilities could fill the missing mp44 place to compensate

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STGs are a no more brainless upgrade then BARs, LMG34, DP28, or 7man conscript. And I dont see how the fact 7 man comes late makes it any less brainless. Your argument is that the MP44s are a boring upgrade, how does their timing change that-or rather how does timing make the 7 man upgrade any more "interesting"? (Hint, it doesnt but it's no less necessary for it)
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There are problem with ST44 that is for sure:
Weapons that are good at all ranges reduce the the need for better positioning which means only on player needs to move to his optimum position while the player with "linear" weapon is better not moving (so that he does not lose DPS on while repositioning.)

The fact that the DPS in mid close range is concentrated in 2 weapons means that the squad does not lose DPS linearly when losing models.

Does the BAR has similar issues? yes but one has to keep in mind that Riflemen where designed to carry the faction so they are meant to be and they should be not used as the benchmark.

Does LMG34/DP28 have similar issues? Not really because one sacrifices DPS on the move AND close DPS so the unit become more vulnerable to CQB something that increase relative positioning.

Does 7 men conscript have similar issues? That is a bit more complicated but the effect is reduced because by the time it become available infatry fight are over and vehicles are involved.

Point here is that relative positing is a great aspect of the game and it effects should be seen in main line infatry.

There are problem with ST44 that is for sure:
Weapons that are good at all ranges reduce the the need for better positioning which means only on player needs to move to his optimum position while the player with "linear" weapon is better not moving (so that he does not lose DPS on while repositioning.)

That's OKW as a faction problem, faction design makes it so weapons like that is mandatory as they have limited and delayed access to support weapons.

The fact that the DPS in mid close range is concentrated in 2 weapons means that the squad does not lose DPS linearly when losing models.

This wasn't a problem for 20 other squads in game, its not a problem for volks.

Does the BAR has similar issues? yes but one has to keep in mind that Riflemen where designed to carry the faction so they are meant to be and they should be not used as the benchmark.

So were redesigned volks, difference is, rifles are supposed to carry you across the game, volks are supposed to diminish and obers are supposed to phase in mid/late game.

Does LMG34/DP28 have similar issues? Not really because one sacrifices DPS on the move AND close DPS so the unit become more vulnerable to CQB something that increase relative positioning.

Units using these are dedicated long range units.
Volks are not, they are middle point between cons and rifles, being somewhat effective at all ranges.

Does 7 men conscript have similar issues? That is a bit more complicated but the effect is reduced because by the time it become available infatry fight are over and vehicles are involved.

How is 7 man con DPS concentrated around 1-2 models? That was your argument up to this point.

Point here is that relative positing is a great aspect of the game and it effects should be seen in main line infatry.

Volks are supposed to position relatively depending on what they are fighting.
Long range against cons and rifles, CQC against tommies.
The point is there, you just chosen to ignore it.

That's OKW as a faction problem, faction design makes it so weapons like that is mandatory as they have limited and delayed access to support weapons.

That is an arbitrary claim without any argument behind it.

This wasn't a problem for 20 other squads in game, its not a problem for volks.

This is known issues for all squads. Concentrate DPS works well mostly for 4 men squads and that is why LMG42 is superior to many other LMGs.

This is exactly the reason why Bren power level had to be decreased decreased.

So were redesigned volks, difference is, rifles are supposed to carry you across the game, volks are supposed to diminish and obers are supposed to phase in mid/late game.

You are simply contradicting your first point

Units using these are dedicated long range units.
Volks are not, they are middle point between cons and rifles, being somewhat effective at all ranges.

Thanks for point the obvious which is exactly my point. VG should not be good at all ranges. The should have advantage at one range and a disadvantage in another.

How is 7 man con DPS concentrated around 1-2 models? That was your argument up to this point.

Read understand and then post, I have neven made a claim that 7 men conscripts have concentrated DPS that is once more a pure figment of or imagination. PLS stop laying about what I have posted or not.

Volks are supposed to position relatively depending on what they are fighting.
Long range against cons and rifles, CQC against tommies.
The point is there, you just chosen to ignore it.

In most cases there is no real reason to reposition when using VG unless you want to use the grenade. The effect of relative positioning simple because less if one of the weapons has linear curve but I have explained all this to you many times in previous posts.

This is exactly why LMG have a negative curve in close range so that SMGs are more effective at sort range without having to buff them.

snip

mp40 volks wouldnt step on sturms because sturms time on the front is limited. and you wouldnt be losing any role that volks fill, you would simply have to chose which role to fill instead of one upgrade to fill them all.thats bad design. the fact that an elite doctrinal upgrade doesnt see action because the cheap unit's non doc upgrade kinda makes my point even...

for scaling, the idea is that giving all your volks mp40s is ill advised. you will want a few to defend certain areas, or flank and attack but chanign them all would be stupid and leave you vulnerable...this is the idea. not upgraded should be a viable option as well and im not against looking at voks rifles to make it so. smoke also grantes utility nd would help in a multitude of scenarios. its powerful enough that itnwas removed from rifles.... being less vulnerable to mgs for example would be reason enough to get one or two even in open maps (which, okw finds difficult due to their lack of smoke....)


STGs are a no more brainless upgrade then BARs, LMG34, DP28, or 7man conscript. And I dont see how the fact 7 man comes late makes it any less brainless. Your argument is that the MP44s are a boring upgrade, how does their timing change that-or rather how does timing make the 7 man upgrade any more "interesting"? (Hint, it doesnt but it's no less necessary for it)

DP-28s increase long ramge firepower and remove any notion of mobility. thats a trade off, but its also on elite infantry which as ive said earlier there should be more flexibility on the power level of the upgrade as the unit is restricted by volume unlike volks who will be your most plentiful infantry unit.
Ober lmg34 is kind of an odd example because it was never intended to be an upgrade. the cost was added to slow the domination of obers, but was intended to make it so the expensive late game 4 man infantry squa would have stacked dps. it was designed for the unit and is again restricted in access and impact by volume.
BARs were designed to make up the lack of elite infantry in the usf lineup. rifles were to scale all game as there is nothing to augment them. personally i would liketo see an access overhaul on them to highlight officers a bit better, but thats another dicussion. and 7 man cons at least reflect the intended role of the unit. 17dps increase isnt nuts and its still a bolt action rifle, the effects are great but the impact isnt high AND its delayed.

to the last point, about the elite close range squad being a better choice than the cheap flexible close rage generalist and the long rage elite specialist being a better choice for long range combat.... duh? you are better than that.... its like complaining that con ppshs dont make them as good a cqb squad as shocks and when they keep their rifles they are not as good at range as dp-28 guards.... except of course none of the things listed are actually doctinal..

That's OKW as a faction problem, faction design makes it so weapons like that is mandatory as they have limited and delayed access to support weapons.

delayed access to support wepons? they get their HMG at the same time they get their STGs and if you go med you get the leig unlocked at the same time as well.... they hit at the same time, how can the upgrade be mandatory to make up for unlocking the units at the same time?
if anything the mp40+ smoke would be a good change BECASUE of the way the leig is unlocked. it would allow you to go mech and still have smoke opening up more diverse play.


Volks are supposed to position relatively depending on what they are fighting.
Long range against cons and rifles, CQC against tommies.
The point is there, you just chosen to ignore it.


unit with an upgrade shouldnt have that flexibility (except BAR units, becasue thats their design from the start) there is a reason you cant get g43s and lmg42s on grens at the same time anymore. good at all range on cheap plentiful core units is a bad design. imagine if cons had svts stock. would not be a good design...

If so many people think the Mp40 is good, why is noone equipping it then.

Don´t change a running system. It works the way it is now depending on you playstyle and enemy.

The hetzer discussion was more interesting tbh

If so many people think the Mp40 is good, why is noone equipping it then.

Because doctrine isn't exactly meta.
Its all about PFs now.

Because doctrine isn't exactly meta.
Its all about PFs now.

Plus like... Why pick an upgrade that refines your role when you have a stock upgrade that makes you better at all ranges? That's kinda exactly the issue. Flipping the stg and Mp40 packages makes firestorm more attractive. Would anyone pick ppshs if cons had stock svts?

What if volks had the ober IR StG upgrade, with grand offensive and spec ops commanders and feuerstrum gave them the flamenade+smoke.

A smoke + flamenade combo is less annoying than the shock smoke+nukenade at least.

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Well you're right, Mp40 volks wouldn't step on Sturm toes, its just nobody would get the upgrade when they could just get another unit of sturms to do the same thing better instead.


Our definition of "brainless upgrade" is different it seems. I hope I am interpreting your words and arguments correctly, but my guess is you define a "brainless" upgrade as an upgrade that has no drawbacks, or the drawbacks are extremely small.
I have a different definition of "brainless" upgrade- When the positive benefits of an upgrade so heavily outweigh the negatives that you would always take the upgrade regardless of if the negatives are substantial. So in the case of guards, while its true they end up losing 50% of their mobile dps, the fact that DP28s increase their static DPS at all ranges above 7 (and very substantially at mid and long range) plus the fact that they grant "button" means that you should NEVER recruit a Guard squad without the intent of getting DP28s ASAP. IE, it is a no brainer upgrade, nobody with a brain would skip it.


So let's set up a hypothetical situation. In this situation, soviets have non doc access to guards and shocks. We'll say shocks are available from Tier 1 and guards(without ptrs) from tier 3. Do you think anyone would EVER get PPSH upgrades for cons in this situation? Do you think anyone would get cons at all? Perhaps one or two for sanbag construction and merge, but they aren't really a mainline infantry at that point.

But let's take this hyperbolic situation further, let's say cons have a non doc SVT upgrade available once either tier 1 or 2 is constructed. Do you think cons would be built now in this scenario? I daresay yes. For the same reason volks are built now.

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But let's take this hyperbolic situation further, let's say cons have a non doc SVT upgrade available once either tier 1 or 2 is constructed. Do you think cons would be built now in this scenario? I daresay yes. For the same reason volks are built now.

SVT is a similar issue with VG's MP44. It as superior weapon at almost all ranges...

Another issue with MP44 is that is profile is completely different to that of SP MP44 with little communication to user.