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Tank Destroyer Moving Penalty When Turning to Aim

7 May 2020, 03:09 AM
#1
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

This has always felt like a distinct problem with the Jagdpanzer IV, and after seeing it a few times in streams recently it has been on my mind again.

When tank destroyers (TDs) rotate to target an enemy tank they have a tendency to shoot before they have finished turning. This seems to coincide with a high miss rate that makes it look like they must have a moving penalty being applied that a stationary turreted tank would not have.

I did some tests in CheatMod with an SU85 and JPIV. I always had the bias that the JPIV was far more heavily affected by this issue, but surprisingly it seemed pretty even from an anecdotal perspective. Both tanks distinctly shoot before they finish rotating and often miss.

I'm curious as to whether increasing general TD aim time by 300 milliseconds or so (and reducing cooldown/reload time accordingly) would help to resolve this issue and allow TDs to perform more consistently in their role.

If the enemy tank was close enough to make the TD keep rotating, the moving penalty would probably still appropriately apply.

Anyone with modding knowledge able to comment on whether or not this makes any sense?

Edit


And the results are in:



Recordings of the experiments in case you want to see it yourself or recreate methodology (I recommend 2x speed :p )




7 May 2020, 05:20 AM
#2
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

I think it's also possible to not have the penalty apply when ONLY rotating as another option.
7 May 2020, 09:28 AM
#3
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3118 | Subs: 2

This has always felt like a distinct problem with the Jagdpanzer IV, and after seeing it a few times in streams recently it has been on my mind again.

When tank destroyers (TDs) rotate to target an enemy tank they have a tendency to shoot before they have finished turning. This seems to coincide with a high miss rate that makes it look like they must have a moving penalty being applied that a stationary turreted tank would not have.

I did some tests in CheatMod with an SU85 and JPIV. I always had the bias that the JPIV was far more heavily affected by this issue, but surprisingly it seemed pretty even from an anecdotal perspective. Both tanks distinctly shoot before they finish rotating and often miss.

I'm curious as to whether increasing general TD aim time by 300 milliseconds or so (and reducing cooldown/reload time accordingly) would help to resolve this issue and allow TDs to perform more consistently in their role.

If the enemy tank was close enough to make the TD keep rotating, the moving penalty would probably still appropriately apply.

Anyone with modding knowledge able to comment on whether or not this makes any sense?

Do you have any counted numbers for yout test?
But what I could imagine hapoening:
The tank shoots as soon as the first edge of the target reaches the tolerated angle. It might be that the tank then targets the edge instead of the center. If the shot scatters, then one half of the scatter area is not covered by the enemy target which leads to a higher chance to miss overall. But I don't know how target aquisition is checked. Maybe it is always the center of the unit that needs to be in range. But I remember a discussion in the forums about Elefant and the British AT emplacement being weird, because although both have 70 range, the Elefant could target the emplacement but not the pther way round due to hit boxes and the projectile spawn point or something.

But it might just be that CoH bugs out and applies some modifiers during rotation.

I am not sure if fire aim time would fix this. It depends on where the tank actually aims at. If the original target would still be the edge and not be updated after the aim time, then nothing would change.
7 May 2020, 10:04 AM
#4
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306

thanks for the info! In order to properly test this one must compare the turning numbers with the numbers while chasing a tank. So one can actually do moving acc vs turning acc. I always feel like the moving acc can be quite bad, so i often halt before the shot.
7 May 2020, 10:22 AM
#5
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3118 | Subs: 2

thanks for the info! In order to properly test this one must compare the turning numbers with the numbers while chasing a tank. So one can actually do moving acc vs turning acc. I always feel like the moving acc can be quite bad, so i often halt before the shot.

Moving accuracy is usually halved. Additionally the scatter area gets larger which further reduces hit chance.
7 May 2020, 10:35 AM
#6
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243


Do you have any counted numbers for yout test?
But what I could imagine hapoening:
The tank shoots as soon as the first edge of the target reaches the tolerated angle. It might be that the tank then targets the edge instead of the center. If the shot scatters, then one half of the scatter area is not covered by the enemy target which leads to a higher chance to miss overall. But I don't know how target aquisition is checked. Maybe it is always the center of the unit that needs to be in range. But I remember a discussion in the forums about Elefant and the British AT emplacement being weird, because although both have 70 range, the Elefant could target the emplacement but not the pther way round due to hit boxes and the projectile spawn point or something.

But it might just be that CoH bugs out and applies some modifiers during rotation.

I am not sure if fire aim time would fix this. It depends on where the tank actually aims at. If the original target would still be the edge and not be updated after the aim time, then nothing would change.



this dont need tests, since everybody which played TD with no turret know this issue...the first shoot misses often while the vehicle stay but must turn the chasemate.


jackson and firefly has a big advantage here
7 May 2020, 11:03 AM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3118 | Subs: 2




this dont need tests, since everybody which played TD with no turret know this issue...the first shoot misses often while the vehicle stay but must turn the chasemate.


jackson and firefly has a big advantage here

Of course it needs testing. Subjective bias is strong and otherwise fixing it would just be guess work.
MMX
7 May 2020, 11:21 AM
#8
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1




this dont need tests, since everybody which played TD with no turret know this issue...the first shoot misses often while the vehicle stay but must turn the chasemate.


jackson and firefly has a big advantage here


while it is indeed known that rotation counts as moving and, hence, rotation tends to make shots miss, this is not what the OP wants to test. the question is if a longer aim time could be used to delay the shooting animation so that the moving accuracy penalty no longer applies.

i did some quick testing on that and it seems that is indeed possible.

setting the fire aim and ready aim time to 2 seconds did the trick in my setup, which used a base acc of 1 and moving acc of 0, together with absurdly high scatter angle to quickly distinguish scatter shots from natural (accuracy based) hits.

in the tests the jp4 took a brief moment to aim after rotating and thus never missed a shot. so it'd be merely about testing how much delay is needed to force the rotation to fully stop before shooting
7 May 2020, 11:40 AM
#9
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 May 2020, 11:21 AMMMX


setting the fire aim and ready aim time to 2 seconds did the trick in my setup, which used a base acc of 1 and moving acc of 0, together with absurdly high scatter angle to quickly distinguish scatter shots from natural (accuracy based) hits.


Oh, very cool. Thanks for doing that. The scatter change is nice idea for testing. I'll record some testing of vanilla rules to help provide a baseline.
7 May 2020, 12:25 PM
#10
avatar of grammar

Posts: 28

Does changing the aim time make it easier to circle the TD?
7 May 2020, 12:28 PM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Does changing the aim time make it easier to circle the TD?

It means you need to have target in sight for longer to shoot. It should make it easier to run away from firing arc.
7 May 2020, 18:47 PM
#12
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

i thought no-turret TD CAN'T shoot on the move, they don't have the line of code right ?
7 May 2020, 18:56 PM
#13
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

i thought no-turret TD CAN'T shoot on the move, they don't have the line of code right ?


Pretty sure all of them can. I think the JT and ISU are the only ones that cannot. Maybe the elephant as well?
7 May 2020, 19:44 PM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

i thought no-turret TD CAN'T shoot on the move, they don't have the line of code right ?

Only super heavies can't.
8 May 2020, 09:02 AM
#15
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1


Do you have any counted numbers for your test?


I do now! Turns out it was pretty much as I suspected.


And the results are in:



Recordings of the experiments in case you want to see it yourself or recreate methodology (I recommend 2x speed :p )



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Willy Pete: @Lady Xenarra this you? https://i.imgflip.com/3e4thi.jpg
01 Apr 2025, 02:53 AM
Lady Xenarra: Does anyone else think that USF needs buffs? It feels like they’re on life support sometimes
01 Apr 2025, 02:36 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone Ahh I missed that memo. I still think its a bad decision though. Adds frustration for players and isnt gonna make them that much money
27 Mar 2025, 15:46 PM
Rosbone: It is also good they left it free until after the free to play weekend. Points for that.
27 Mar 2025, 09:34 AM
Rosbone: But I agree, the cost to get a full decent Coh game pushing $115 US is not the best idea. Especially when it needs so much more work for casuals.
27 Mar 2025, 09:32 AM
Rosbone: To be fair, it was a thank you to early fans right? They said it was not free for long and it would become a pay DLC at some point.
27 Mar 2025, 09:30 AM
Willy Pete: Re-releasing free DLC so they can charge new players money for it. Brilliant marketing strategy :clap:
27 Mar 2025, 04:31 AM
Soheil: Coh2 still broken server ?
25 Mar 2025, 18:27 PM
Rosbone: Congrats to Relic. Looks like Coh3 has finally usurped Coh2 s the popular Coh. You smell terrific. :snfQuinn:.
24 Mar 2025, 02:46 AM
Nickbn: and again someone else replies. I mean come on guys. Give @adamírcz a chance
22 Mar 2025, 14:00 PM
Willy Pete: @Nickbn you didn't ask a question, and this is a chat box...
20 Mar 2025, 13:11 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone it's incredibly rude to speak on someone elses behalf, especially when a question is directly adressed to them. I understand your passion for the subject at hand but I want to hear from him.
20 Mar 2025, 10:16 AM
Rosbone: @Nickbn No, I am just saying people should not be using any Relic owned forum since they have proven they ban anyone who says true things about Coh3.
18 Mar 2025, 19:01 PM
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18 Mar 2025, 16:47 PM
Rosbone: #RelicModdedEchoChamber
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Rosbone: @Nickbn True except, the only people on the Relic Discord/Reddit/Steam are brain washed monkey zealots. They wont even understand what @adamírcz is talking about. Anyone else is banned.
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Nickbn: @adamírcz might be a better idea to voice this to relic directly than to voice it here, in a shoutbox of a nearly deade fansite #justsaying...
16 Mar 2025, 16:36 PM
webdesign-muenchen-w: @Rosbone it is sick
14 Mar 2025, 22:09 PM
aerafield: @adamírcz aren't the first two disconnects free every day?
14 Mar 2025, 19:26 PM
Rosbone: It is so unlike Relic to punish its fans and community.
14 Mar 2025, 12:07 PM
adamírcz: So, I just got a leaver penalty without even getting onto the loading screen because of the game disconnecting, bravo Relic
14 Mar 2025, 10:45 AM
Rosbone: It is an indicator of the very short sighted capitalist view that plagues any company where leadership does not understand the product.
13 Mar 2025, 20:00 PM
Rosbone: They dont care about Coh3 or Coh in general. They are just trying to grab cash by ripping off the small user base they have.
13 Mar 2025, 19:58 PM
Rosbone: Just making mistake after mistake after mistake.
13 Mar 2025, 19:57 PM
Rosbone: It is clear they crapped out an unfinished game. And are now barely supporting it as they make new smaller games. Coh3 is stillborn. It will be meh for at least another 2-4 years. Meaning they killed the whole franchise instead of growing it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:56 PM
Rosbone: For a thing they could fix in minutes. Literally minutes.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: If I did play coh3 and was mainly a skirmish player, I would be pissed and probably stop playing. And it has been like this since release. Why? I would not tell my friends to buy a game I am not even playing. Lost sales and angered users.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: I am just saddened how Relic keeps hurting themselves by not fixing 5 minute things like menus. Why anger users with stuff that could be fixed in minutes???
13 Mar 2025, 19:50 PM
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13 Mar 2025, 19:48 PM
OKSpitfire: You can rage as often as you like btw, you usually manage to make it pretty funny.
12 Mar 2025, 11:18 AM
Rosbone: So it was a systemic failure across multiple disciplines and check points.
12 Mar 2025, 04:30 AM
Rosbone: Knowing how companies work, I imagine a new hire making the menus. The API they are using is complicated and things were hard to figure out. But at some point QA or management should have addressed these things. Usually within 6 months of starting.
12 Mar 2025, 04:29 AM
Rosbone: @theekvn I dont hate Coh3 or Relic. I just dont understand how you work on Coh3 for like 7 years and the menu system is worse than if a Programming 101 student made it. Feel free to explain it to me.
12 Mar 2025, 04:07 AM
theekvn: + 33% dmg rear hit was best deal ever.
12 Mar 2025, 04:00 AM
theekvn: KT just need fuel debuf from 15% to 50%, Ele arc of fire- aim time improve and they are good to go
12 Mar 2025, 03:59 AM
theekvn: and please Rosbone,I know you hate Coh3 to the bone due to your drama with relic, Still, Can you give a proper point of view instead of raging ?.
12 Mar 2025, 03:54 AM
theekvn: you rather go 76 to unity Whizbang 2.0 or go home.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: also US tier 4 is 145f and Sherman pen 140 nerf is too much.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: Whizbang lock behind CP, meanwhile stuka is techtree progress
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07 Mar 2025, 19:14 PM
OKSpitfire: I do like that they made the Stuka more expensive instead of nerfing it into the ground though. Found it pretty unsatisfying to use before that buff a while back....
06 Mar 2025, 16:35 PM
aerafield: USF already is by far the shittiest faction in terms of countering blobbing and turtling, now they supposedly have one overtuned tool locked behind a BG and it's immediately a massive problem?
06 Mar 2025, 13:33 PM
Lady Xenarra: I think post-2.0 Whizbang buffs, the price is too low esp since the Stuka got nerfed in cost too. Speaking of which, how exactly is one supposed to successfully dive this Sherman in disguise? Med tank spam running into SSFs?
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OKSpitfire: A powerful, doctrinal unit that outperforms stock stuff? Colour me shocked! :P
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Willy Pete: Cool you wanna lose your stock lategame arty too then?
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Lady Xenarra: WTB Whizzbang for DAK instead of Stuka, 5 fuel cheape, 60MP more expensive and next to impossible to dive. :rofl:
05 Mar 2025, 20:27 PM
Rosbone: It is also hard to expect Relic to help Coh2 when they cant even make working menus in Coh3 yet, 2 years after release and at full price+ for DLCs. Thats like asking a fish to do calculus.
04 Mar 2025, 02:58 AM
Rosbone: But this last patch has made good progress for grabbing players. All we can hope is Coh3 gets to Coh2s quality level before everyone abandons the franchise. Its Relic so they will completely f*%k it up as usual. But its a hope/cope.
04 Mar 2025, 02:55 AM
Rosbone: Relic wants Coh2 to fail so players will migrate to Coh3. It is hard to blame them since Coh3 sucks so bad. It needs all the help it can get.
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