Panther

Reduce its HP from 960 to 800, max speed from 6.6 to 6.4, increase far penetration from 220 to 230, range from 50 to 55, and move the 1s wind-down to reload time so it can be decreased with veterancy*.

*((5.2-5.6)+1) to (6.2-6.6), vet 3: ((3.64-3.92)+1) to (4.34-4.62)

Reduce its HP from 960 to 800, max speed from 6.6 to 6.4, increase far penetration from 220 to 230, range from 50 to 55, and move the 1s wind-down to reload time so it can be decreased with veterancy*.

*((5.2-5.6)+1) to (6.2-6.6), vet 3: ((3.64-3.92)+1) to (4.34-4.62)

While I agree that the range difference between allied TDs and Panthers could be lowered to 5 with Panther health down to 800, I don't think Panthers should have 15 range advantage over Mediums that already get stomped by Panther. This idea is on the right track but I would like to see other changes follow it, which would increase the scope and possibly never make it due to potential balance consequences (like a) all mediums get 45 range and then ATG get 65 range... or b) Panther range remain 50, all TDs except Stug go down to 55, Stug gets cost increase to 100FU, Puma range drops to 45). Either way changing Panther just a little won't fix much by itself and will potentially amplify other issues

Reduce its HP from 960 to 800, max speed from 6.6 to 6.4, increase far penetration from 220 to 230, range from 50 to 55, and move the 1s wind-down to reload time so it can be decreased with veterancy*.

*((5.2-5.6)+1) to (6.2-6.6), vet 3: ((3.64-3.92)+1) to (4.34-4.62)

This is basically an indirect buff to jacksons... no tnx

This is basically an indirect buff to jacksons... no tnx

The complaint about 60TDs is almost always the standoff range. This would be diminishing that, and the Panther would still win a 1v1 fight with a M36 pretty much every single time in this setup. I even thought of suggesting 60 range, but thought better of it considering you would have to nerf the durability basically down to allied TD levels to compensate, or else the unit would hard counter its' own counters.

You're welcome to suggest something else, but any buff to Panther offensive capability (besides maybe something like a penetration increase) MUST be met with a durability reduction, given how oppressive this unit already is (TDs are required to counter it, unless Axis player is an idiot letting themselves get snared in front of an AT wall).

As for the M36, I have made many, many comments and recommendations regarding rebalancing the Jackson already, and you should know this by now.

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Disagreed, almost completely.
First the set of rules you lay down are nothing but an idea of yours on how the units should interact.
(Not you but many ppl cant define what panther is, rather a TD or a heavy or a premium medium)
In the case Panther is considered a TD, it SHOULD have better odds vs Jackons simply because...
-Wait for it

It costs more

But because many allied players hate that, but love the price excuse simply cant make a point out of it. The always repeated sentence of the "TD must beat Tanks" is applied both ways if we consider both, panthers and M36 as TDs. So why doesnt Panther have 60 range, well we blame it on its durability. And then we come to the unlogical assumption that harder is better. That ended up making panthers trash. Literally trash vs higly mobile or self spotting TDs.

In theory 1v1 M36 vs panther is a panther win. In practice, and mostly between skilled players there is no clear winner. So i dont take that BS of "Panthers beat M36" unless the USF player is proven to be braindead. Different skill players should not numb the judgement of the units.

If panther were not to be considered TD, rather than a premium tank with good AT, hence no 60 range, then why do you want it to be weaker to its natural counters. 5 Range wouldnt fix anything and 10 more armor penetration would do sh*t difference against TDs, but maybe to heavier tanks. If you weight those down with HP reduction you are simply making the panther a pet kitty cat to those pesky 60 range TDs allied already abuse a lot. If you pay attention not many players rely on panthers in any way because they are so unreliable vs a cheaper and """"More micro intensive"""" unit.

To summarize my statement, panther is a weird bug, i dont classify as you did and i disagreed with your changes because makes it worse for axis rather than better. Its no "buff" at all but a strange nerf against what is keeping it down.

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I had a huge fucking post written up and this useless website logged me out before I could post it. I'm tired so this is going to be quick and disorganized.

1. What is the Panther? What is it supposed to kill?
It's hard to classify this thing. You say so yourself. It has pretty piss-poor AI, sure, at least before the pintle upgrade, but it also has more or less heavy tank durability (as well as heavy crush), which by itself basically lets it hard counter allied mediums. You could reduce the range to 45 and it would beat the shit out of any non-TD stock allied vehicle in the entire fucking game. This thing even has a favorable penetration ratio compared to the comet, which it is often compared with. You say something very simple and not very controversial, that this unit should be better than the M36 since it costs 90mp and 40fu more than it. I have made the argument many times before that it already is a clearer, or perhaps harder counter to medium tanks than the M36 is, since the Panther is for all intents and purposes fucking invulnerable to allied mediums. This is a fact. Theorycrafting about flanking the Panther with two mediums (a flank with only one medium tank is not mathematically sufficient; if every single medium tank shell penetrates the 90 armor rear, the medium tank will still lose the trade) or some complicated combined arms operations is not a valid argument, particularly when map pools are considered.

Is it better at fighting heavy tanks? No, it's not, and that's a problem with this unit that I think should be remedied; maybe 10 extra penetration and 5 extra range was a lowball, but I don't remember what the IS-2 armor got lowered to. It'd have made it a slightly more dangerous foe to 60 range allied TDs as well; you constituted this as a nerf, I have no fucking clue why but lets move on.

Is it better at fighting enemy tank destroyers? The matchup is complex. Being able to cruise the battlefield basically immune to stock infantry AT weapons and medium tank shells is something Axis players take for granted (as is the Pintle and dual MGs that already give the Panther better AI performance than any TD in the game). These are already qualities that make it "superior" to the M36 you compare it to(and which, I will reiterate again, and for the last time, I have already called to have rebalanced on this very forum, something which you MUST be aware of by now.) Whether they would decidedly contribute to a Panther victory in a one-on-one fight in a realistic game I can't say, but the advantages of the Panther cannot be discounted any more than its' range disadvantage.

But fine, let's look at some alternative balance concepts based on theories of what the fuck this unit should do.

1. Panther: Uber TD: Anti-TD nightmare
This is by and far the most autistic of the options, but it exists, and I'm sure many low IQ morons suppose that the unit should do this by default in its current state.

Basically, make the Panther either outrange allied TDs, which would in essence make it a superior anti-medium TD as well, or give it 60 range but also allow it to somehow outfight other 60 range TDs by virtue of durability or DPS or both. Since I am familiar with you and generally believe you are not braindead, I will remind you that the Panther in its current state hard countering the opposing units that are currently assigned to counter it presents a balance issue: if you have forgotten this, think for a moment of a heavily armored 60(minimum) range tank cruising around the battlefield with its 960 HP and 260 armor, shrugging off bazookas, PTRS and PIATs, blowing up the opposing TD, completely ineffectual medium tanks, maybe an ambulance, basically having free reign until the dumbfuck player behind it pushes his luck too far and gets his damaged Panther snared in front of 2 or 3 M1 anti-tank guns. 6 penetrating hits is a lot harder to make on 260 armor than it is to make 4 penetrating hits on 140 armor.

Obviously, then, to make this work you would need to make the Panther vulnerable to sources of damage it cannot simply destroy from 60-whatever range, a vulnerability every other 60 range TD has. Drop the armor and the HP down to the level of its competitors or near to that. You could conceivably leave armor somewhat higher than the Allied 60 range TDs by nature of the Allies' higher medium tank point blank penetration and higher quantity of low-penetration infantry AT sources, but HP would need to dive downwards; 720 at the absolute most.

2. Heavy tank killer
This has already been thrown around and mostly involves raising the damage of the main gun to 200 and/or raising penetration as well. It wouldn't really make this thing any more capable of raping allied TDs than it is now (640/200 = 3.2 = 4) so I figure Axis mains will still bitch about it, but hey, the AT power of the unit is increased, and it cements this thing as some god tank destroyer while keeping the quirky nonsense this thing has.

3. Premium medium tank
Typed this out and immediately realized it'd require completely revisiting the unit as it is, but I guess you could imagine this thing as some sort of Comet clone. Ideas of giving this thing the Sherman HE shell for whatever stupid reason make me want to kill myself when I think of how they'd manage to pack so much HE filler into a high velocity long-barrel 75-mm gun shell, but whatever! Realism is gay, right! Still wouldn't be capable of raping the M36, so people will still bitch, probably moreso once they realize the PzIV isn't the Cromwell and would be way more cost efficient than producing an Ostheer/OKW Comet clone.

4. Speedy bruiser tank
Give this thing moving accuracy. Another fuck realism and fuck history concept but at least it continues the Panther's tradition of not having a clear role or direct comparison in the game. You could give this thing 0.75 moving accuracy and I suppose it'd be better at killing TDs, as well as anything else it can penetrate, but probably still not enough to end the bitching. Considering people already complain about stationary accuracy there'd probably be an accuracy buff in general here just to keep this thing suitably oppressive against everything that already cannot penetrate it and is thusly already basically hopeless against it.

I have made the argument many times before that it already is a clearer, or perhaps harder counter to medium tanks than the M36 is, since the Panther is for all intents and purposes fucking invulnerable to allied mediums. This is a fact...

At this point I have to point out that Comet also counters PzIV and given the price difference ratio I would say with cost efficiency that is close.

Imo there many problem that are not taken into account:

1) Trying to balance both OKW and Ostheer Panther together although the factions and tech cost are different.

Imo one of the main problem for Ostheer was created when the Panther price went up making the Tiger a more attractive option.

The units should not simply be balanced separately while suing a different variation name for instance model D and model G.

2) T4 design. The Ostheer T4 design currently provides unit that specialized and expensive going Panther will leave one lacking in AI while going Brumbar will leave one lacking in AT.

One could/should allow this building to either have an allow around unit (either a unit similar to Comet that could be a stock Tiger or Panther with suitable rounds) or have access to cheap unit that can support the specialized unit. (that could the ostwind supporting the Panther, with stug E going into t3 and brumbar going doctrinal or the JP4 supporting the brumbar).

3) The performance of allied TDs. The chance to hit and penetrate of units like the SU-85/M36 even at max range go up to number close to 100% with veterancy and that should be fixed.

4) Power level. M36/Su-85/Panther all have seen increases in their power level having both price and performance go up, that leads to fights that judge the outcome of the game. If one loses these expensive units it hard too hard replace and will probably lose the game. If one does not lose this units one can probably shut down enemy vehicle play.

Imo it worth trying to reduce the power level of these units so that it easier to replace but less impactful to have.

and move the 1s wind-down to reload time so it can be decreased with veterancy*

Wind up / wind down is part of the gun animations so that's impossible. I don't see the point of it anyway, if we wanted to further decrease its reload with veterancy we could just give it a higher bonus.

I don't understand the logic of balancing the panther vs Jackson

there are three total allied factions and I don't think anyone would argue Panther struggles vs FF for example...

Jackson just needs a slight mobility nerf is all, it's a tad too mobile considering its DPS vs FF. Range changes with panther would totally change the 4vs4 meta and need multiple patches and complete stat changes to balance.

Which is wasteful focussing on non-issues considering there are commanders that are in need of love.

Panther is in a good spot. I don't know why you want to nerf/buff it. It's not a tank destroyer, it's currently the best non doctrinal tank (possibly doctrinal). With MGs you can easily take on infantry and out of place AT squads. With the speed and agility and hp and armour you can take on any medium armour and TDs (let's be honest, unless the enemy is spamming TDs, panther doesn't really care about a single TD). The range part is easily bypassed by not rushing in when there is spotting on the map (flares, infantry, etc). I know for hell I'm not moving my Jackson(s) anywhere close to any enemy unit, be it infantry or tank, cause it's dead before you can react. Last but not least, the price tag is high but the ability to build 2 Panthers and cruise the map in peace, killing tanks is a blessing on it's own. Of course, if you avoid TDs. And if by any chance you run into a mine, well, tough luck (that's why I always have one pio or sturms behind any tank). It counters every allied medium tank (from Sherman to Comet), but is countered by TDs at range (if you get closer you can make any TD your bit**). Don't know what's the big fuss.

I had a huge fucking post written up and this useless website logged me out before I could post it. I'm tired so this is going to be quick and disorganized.

Man what a boomer, it happened to me many times before, i understand how it felt.
Its quite a walltext but im going to "summarize" some parts for the sake of the rest of the forums. I agree with you on many points now, i am not being dismissive and if i sound like it, i didnt mean to. Remember please english is not my native language also if i mispell words.

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This is spot on and i agree with, the fact that the durability and hardness of panthers put other mediums out of the league of mediums is true, but that doesnt really mean it counters mediums, to put it in perspective, its like a bigger fish instead of a fisherman. It will be a definitive answer to mediums 1v1, no doubt about that but panthers dont have that 100% shield that i feel you are describing. Its a high RNG + lot of HP combination, ideal to force allied tanks to desist rather take the risk, because panthers will pen back for sure.
My point is, panther is not a medium counter, but mediums cant deal with him. Its a weakness exploit rather than a strenght.

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Again agreed and i didnt ment to be too harsh on the +10 pen +5 range criticism, i understand that the sole idea of saying "give panthers" unleashes a mob of deniers and haters.
Its true that more range would put panthers in an advantage point, like TDs do with it and other heavies,

I considered the whole change as a nerf because currently in team games allied USF players exploit double jacksons. On 1v1 games though the change would be less dramatic. Panthers pen could use a buff and only affect it vs heavies maybe, the range is a lot more complicated, because being able to fire back at TDs has deep consequences, remember OST has hull down or spot scopes. I would rather not take that route, but instead look at the TDs performance.

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Here is my main point. I understand that you mentioned many times before both, M36 and panthers and i dont dislike what you said about them, unless i explicitly say it. Thats why im also writing a second walltext of answer, because i like what its being suggested. Hopefully that will put some merit in your effort that i have taken account into, before answering in the first place.

But when you compare panthers to TD when we have discussed it not like a TD of sorts its not really a good point, its ok, yes but not a complete legit point. like saying panthers are immune to handheld AT aswell, you need only to bring it down to 90%-80% to snare it and then the situation turns upside down.
What i want to say its, you get panthers because they are fast+durable+hard hitting. A rushing panther snared is a 2/3rds of a panther worth its costs. Having any TD present means a secured kill, and thats fine, thats how the game goes but you dont see very often allied TDs facing infantry and even less nearby volks/grens. But panthers somehow have to take the risk to be near allied mainlines more often because of their design. In a tight combat youll see more often panther snared than M36 snared, at least from my experience.

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I dont consider this as an option/solution in any way, panthers shouldnt be ubermachinenn nor counter TDs, Not only it would be needed to remove everyting made it "original" to be fair and competitive. It would also trash the faction designs.
Im happy that panthers cant counter TDs, dont think otherwise. But somehow as the game is implemented currently the only way to punish bad TD play is with another as fast unit, for the M36 case. For FF and Su85 you also require mobility. Personally i dislike panthers being so mobile.

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This solution could only thrive is you limit panthers to 1. But again its a slippery slope from there on. I would however like to see less panthers for better panthers. Maybe a slower, hard hitter and limited to 1. To cut the axis player BS aswell, lategame panther cancer is so dumb.

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i loled at the panther HE rounds, man. I think KT and tigers perform that role better. Damn somehow i imagine swapping panthers as doc for tigers as stock if OST really needed premium mediums. But of course game devs you do triple the work to make the game even playable tweaking tigers/panther. Agreed but i dont like it.

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Agreed on the description but this will lead to panther vs TDs situations, at least being more micro intensive but not really what panthers should do IMO. I think you could remove panther speed and it should still perform the same way. Because if it should dominate mediums by being tough, you dont need the speed. IMO its in the game to make panther able to secure kills. If i were to make a change i would do it the other way around. Making the panther slower but more accurate, with the same range, sort of like a ATG immune to small artillery and able to survive from stray TD shots.

Man im exausted, but all your points are fair. Panther is hard. I dont think i can fix it but i think we both tried at least.

...
Jackson just needs a slight mobility nerf is all, it's a tad too mobile considering its DPS vs FF. ...

I would consider this point if it werent the case that tanks dont stand idle shooting each others to death. And teamgames often have 2xFF/M36 that kite panthers to death. So DPS/DPM is simply a trash stat to make comparations with. Maybe for infantry but not for tanks

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No it is relevant, especially in teamgames stuff like turret rotation/rotation speed or turretless TD's that will struggle on maps like General mud where panthers can pop around shot blockers for a few shots then back out.

Jackson can do similar with it's mobility but using a FF/SU-85 is like a snail in comparison. And panthers do not struggle right now in 4vs4.

And teamgames often have 2xFF/M36 that kite panthers to death. So DPS/DPM is simply a trash stat to make comparations with.

If the matchup was as simple as this then only axis faction would be OKW, because Jagdpanzer outduels FF or jackson. But actual games are not Testmod

The nerf of the Tiger as a Spearhead tank composition make more visible the lack of versatility of the panther. One would prefer to go for a Stug+Ostwind. The panther remain a usefull tank only against Churchill (and other heavy tank which got nerf too).

The cap created by the nerf of the Tiger has been filled with Combined medium tank composition.

To conclude, I'd say that the Panther and the current Tiger share the same problem, their capabilities doesn't fit with their high cost.

For such cost you'd rather go for a specialiazed Tank hunther than for them ( Elephant>Tiger and Stug>Panther), same idea with AI.

Make hull-down non-doc, so we get a stationary 60 range panther, able to hold position versus tank-hunters, but can be counterd with at-guns. Give a range-indicator for the ability, so it becomes better to use.

The only problem we have is on 2vs2 + games, where range becomes more important.


Edit: and OKW has Jagdpanzer4, no need.


Edit of Edit:

Remove hull-down option of Elefant and Tiger-Ace. So it doesn't becomes OP.

Edit of Edit of Edit:

So Ostheer becomes its special taste back, after Brits stole every unique stuff.






... with non-doc hull-down also PaK43 can be overworked, making it more like brit's at-emplacement. Not be able to shoot though worldobjects.

Fixing stitty mechanism after years...

I am late to the party but I think the Panther is in a very good position right now.

It is a very durable tank killer with excellent pushing power in regards to its cost.

Putting it in a lightbox and comparing it to the M36 is unrealistic as they would have different supporting armies behind the tank. Sure the M36 has speed and can kite but theres a finite amount of the map to kite. If it gets hit even once, its basically out of action unless you want to risk it dying and M36's are fucking expensive for the glass cannon that you get.

The Panther excels with its strong frontal armour, being a very durable tank killer with excellent protection against anything the enemy can throw at them. In pairs or groups, it can push allied armour with ease with its amazing gun + pen to shoot the front and pen, great armour and hp pool.

On the flip side, its devastating to lose one and if you can't control fuel then you can never expect to get one. Even then, when you get one without being able to get proper fuel income... This single unit won't shift the tide of battle by itself. Maybe try a stuka or something.

Jackson can do similar with it's mobility but using a FF/SU-85 is like a snail in comparison. And panthers do not struggle right now in 4vs4.

If the matchup was as simple as this then only axis faction would be OKW, because Jagdpanzer outduels FF or jackson. But actual games are not Testmod

We were talking about M36 vs Panthers, If you compare M36 to the other allied TD, its offtopic and its also false. FF/SU85 dont need to kite because one self-spots and the other has better alpha damage+tulips to finish blows. Any conclusion made from that is not productive at all. Srsly

The matchup was never "simple" because there is simply too much powercreep involved, from panthers, M36, FF. As another offtopic im not even going to adess it more than i did.

Well, panther should probably be better anti tank than comet but slightly worse anty infantry.

That's literally what it is now.

Just make Panther a copy paste of Comet and I'm happy.

That's literally what it is now.

I wrote SLIGHTLY - now panther is terrible anti infantry unless you buy extra pintle (which is not too good either). Secondly, comet has the (only 20 munitions) grenade ability. The gun plus its mgs plus grenade make it really deadly against inf. Panther is simply MUCH worse anty infantry and requires you to buy pintle to make it a bit better but it still bad. You can succeed with panther usually if you are winning anyway. Terrible accuracy makes it really bad at chasing and brawling. On top of that the tech it requires (ost) and its price (both axis factions) make it just too expensive for what it does. Compare, for example, KV tanks or other Soviet vehicles and their pricing.