Panther

Increase the cost to 220 fuel if needed for balance but for god sake buff its moving accuracy.

I suggest 0.5 to 0.75

or

Add a panzer commander upgrade as default choice. This commander upgrade DOESNT increase vision or allow arty strike.. just increases main gun accuracy for the panther. People can choose between mg for anti inf or tank commander for better accuracy while sacrificing anti inf. both 50 muni ofc

I'd personally would like the Panther more geared to killing premium medium tanks, heavies and non-640 medium tanks. Axis already have a lot of units geared to killing mediums and since Axis don't have anti-heavy TDs, that should be the Panthers role.

It would need adjustment and testing, but it'd focus on having a 200 damage gun vs those types of units along with possible penetration adjustments.

Even if it was accurate, most mediums can be defeated by a variety of other units. You can already dives lightly supported TDs with blitzing PIVs that are around earlier, can mop up infantry and put pressure throughout the map for less cost, pop, and in the case of Ostheer, tech.

"But mirage, it would club the Comet and T34/85!"

That's kind of its point of deploying the Panther. If the enemy is bringing the higher end tanks to the field, this is what is going to be fielded. And it's AI isn't super crazy so there is still ATG support, TDs, snares, etc.

I too agree with this approach. Making it tuned as a premium tank counter gives both axis factions a much needed RELIABLE counter to these units, especially if it's inefficient against normal mediums.

Can Panther deal 200 damage?
Then Relic must reverse the nerfs to IS2, Pershing and Churchill.

Panther is in great spot now after Ost gets T4 buffs. Combined arms with your Pak and Mg42 and Pioneers!

I'd personally would like the Panther more geared to killing premium medium tanks, heavies and non-640 medium tanks. Axis already have a lot of units geared to killing mediums and since Axis don't have anti-heavy TDs, that should be the Panthers role.

It would need adjustment and testing, but it'd focus on having a 200 damage gun vs those types of units along with possible penetration adjustments.

Even if it was accurate, most mediums can be defeated by a variety of other units. You can already dives lightly supported TDs with blitzing PIVs that are around earlier, can mop up infantry and put pressure throughout the map for less cost, pop, and in the case of Ostheer, tech.

"But mirage, it would club the Comet and T34/85!"

That's kind of its point of deploying the Panther. If the enemy is bringing the higher end tanks to the field, this is what is going to be fielded. And it's AI isn't super crazy so there is still ATG support, TDs, snares, etc.

+1

I'd personally would like the Panther more geared to killing premium medium tanks, heavies and non-640 medium tanks. Axis already have a lot of units geared to killing mediums and since Axis don't have anti-heavy TDs, that should be the Panthers role.

It would need adjustment and testing, but it'd focus on having a 200 damage gun vs those types of units along with possible penetration adjustments.

Even if it was accurate, most mediums can be defeated by a variety of other units. You can already dives lightly supported TDs with blitzing PIVs that are around earlier, can mop up infantry and put pressure throughout the map for less cost, pop, and in the case of Ostheer, tech.

"But mirage, it would club the Comet and T34/85!"

That's kind of its point of deploying the Panther. If the enemy is bringing the higher end tanks to the field, this is what is going to be fielded. And it's AI isn't super crazy so there is still ATG support, TDs, snares, etc.

Panther penetration is already good enough as it is after the IS2 nerfs. I don't think it should have a 100% chance to penetrate Comets, AVRE, Crocodile or KV2.

I also think it's SU85 and Jackson that should lose some of their penetration buffs from vet and not Panther getting even more penetration. I want armour to actually matter. Vet 2 SU 85 and Jacksons are just silly. I don't see why they should have enough penetration to drive up to Jagdtigers and kill them from the front. At the same time, Firefly should get some penetration buff with vet because even at vet 3 it only has 210 at max range which is not enough against heavy tanks. Considering Firefly is supposed to be good vs heavy tanks this is a weird design choice. Having a hard-hitting gun with slow reload is fine but not if it can't penetrate reliably.

Giving the Panther 200 damage without any reload compensation seems too OP to me too.

In my opinion, slightly buffing the moving accuracy and/or reload is enough for the Panther. I don't understand the problem of T34/85 and Comet either, Panther counters both very well already.

Just give the Panther the same accuracy as a Stug and it should be fine imo.

It's the only thing that makes me sad, paying 35 + 185 fuel compared to 90 fuel and then having it miss like 2 shots in a row. I think it's also the better scatter of the Stug that makes a difference.

Just give the Panther the same accuracy as a Stug and it should be fine imo.

It's the only thing that makes me sad, paying 35 + 185 fuel compared to 90 fuel and then having it miss like 2 shots in a row. I think it's also the better scatter of the Stug that makes a difference.

Scatter effect are not straight forward in vehicles fight since high value might actually help score collision hit.

One would have to do many test vs static and moving targets to come to any conclusion.

Reduce acceleration, increase accuracy and scatter, reduce turret and vehicle rotation. Harder to manuever, easier to hit targets.

Personally, I feel that the Panther's in an okay place at the moment. Not dominatin' like it used to in the old days and complaints of panther spam being the rage. 200 damage per shot would be better for dealing with the 800s meds certainly but I don't think exchanging that for key performance capabilities like mobility etc. is a good idea. Though, perhaps I'm in the minority of players who actually use Panthers as devastating raiders/hit&run instead of the usual slug-outs.

Hmm....maybe I'm guilty of Command Panther stalling.

Reduce acceleration, increase accuracy and scatter, reduce turret and vehicle rotation. Harder to manuever, easier to hit targets.

Isn't this just a squishier Tiger with worse AI?

Isn't this just a squishier Tiger with worse AI?

More like a Firefly on drugs.

Mirage said on stream to balance he'd something like a second of reload and look at health/armor. Which I think is a good solution, because the slower reload will make it worse against medium armor than say a StuG, but the certain penetration will make it much more desirable against anything heavier - which is what you want the Panther for.

I also think it's SU85 and Jackson that should lose some of their penetration buffs from vet and not Panther getting even more penetration. I want armour to actually matter.

I agree with everything else in your post, but this part is a bit more complex. Panther used to have higher armour but lower HP which made panther engagements RNG. The balance team decided to increase the health by 160 from 800 to 960 but took away some of the armour. If you now nerf TD penetration, Panther HP would have to go down too, otherwise it would be too easy to keep it alive. Comets that have pretty high armour and fight lower pen axis TDs (except Panther/Tiger) have 800HP, I believe that the high bounce rate is the reason.

Mirage said on stream to balance he'd something like a second of reload and look at health/armor. Which I think is a good solution, because the slower reload will make it worse against medium armor than say a StuG, but the certain penetration will make it much more desirable against anything heavier - which is what you want the Panther for.

Well the Panther has 260-240-220 penetration. I don't see how that is not enough after the IS2 armour nerf.

Comet/AVRE/Croc has 290 armour so it will pen them at a very high % already.

KV1 has 270, KV2 has 300, ISU and IS2 have 340.

Pershing has 270 armour.

The Panther feels a bit lacking I agree but not because of penetration. It's more because it's somewhat difficult to use the mobility to full effect because you always need to micro every shot on the move by ordering stop shortly before you expect the shot to go off. If the Panther had more accuracy on the move it would be pretty good. This or slightly lower reload so it shoots a bit faster.

Obviously the Panther could also get 200 DPS with a reload nerf but I am not really sure if that is a good idea because it would make it worse against Allied 640 HP TDs. You will still need 4 shots to kill them but it will take you more time to do so. That's why I don't really like the 200 DPS suggestion. Also not sure if a Panther 4 shotting a Comet is such a good idea. It would be fine vs T34/85 but against Comet? Comet costs 175 fuel and 500+ MP. It would make Comets pretty much useless as soon as a Panther shows up. Comet already doesn't have the range, reload speed and penetration to fight Panthers as it is so the balance in that regard is fine. Panther has more AT capability and will 1v1 the Comet but the Comet is better vs infantry because of main-gun AOE, grenades and the phosphor round.

... It's more because it's somewhat difficult to use the mobility to full effect ..

Another issue with Panther mobility is very low rear (lower than Comet) that make most AT weapon able to easily penetrate it.

If the Panther moves in it simply risks too much of its durability.

Finally one has to also check the unit performance with veterancy and the 10% armor is quite meh for a unit with such high XP value.

Another issue with Panther mobility is very low rear (lower than Comet) that make most AT weapon able to easily penetrate it

I don't see what the Comet has to do with that. It has 110 rear armor which means that any German AT weapon has a 100% chance to pen it at max range. It can not bounce anything either. They are highly mobile and durable "rush" tanks that need to have a weakness to give their diving potential a proper risk compared to the reward.

I think the Panther could use an accuracy or moving accuracy buff at vet 2, especially now that generalist mediums have a reduced target size, and maybe a small experience requirements buff. But beyond that I think that it's a well balanced unit.

Another thing with the Panther is its 1 second cooldown that doesn't get affected by the reload veterancy bonus, so the bonus only amounts to -25% instead of -30%.

Not saying that's imba tho, Comet veterancy bonus is only -20% for example.

I was allways waiting for the time Tiger becomes a non-doc for Ostheer instead of Panther.

Imo:
A panther driving straight towards a TD from max range should always loose.
Panthers and TDs should cost the same
Panthers should be given the Sherman’s smoke mortar barrage to allow them to close the gap instead of blitz as it offers more counter play

I don't see what the Comet has to do with that. It has 110 rear armor which means that any German AT weapon has a 100% chance to pen it at max range. It can not bounce anything either. They are highly mobile and durable "rush" tanks that need to have a weakness to give their diving potential a proper risk compared to the reward.

I think the Panther could use an accuracy or moving accuracy buff at vet 2, especially now that generalist mediums have a reduced target size, and maybe a small experience requirements buff. But beyond that I think that it's a well balanced unit.

Ant yet Panther gets a vet 2 9 rear armor bonus that stills allow the majority of AT weapons to penetrate it.

And lets not forget that Panther is facing stock TDs with penetrations up to 286 at range 60.

Imo:
A panther driving straight towards a TD from max range should always loose.
Panthers and TDs should cost the same
Panthers should be given the Sherman’s smoke mortar barrage to allow them to close the gap instead of blitz as it offers more counter play

I agree with most of your points, except the first one. For "A panther driving straight towards a TD from max range should always lose" to work, OST would need a 60-range TD; otherwise they'll have literally no non-doc counter to allied 60-range TDs. STUGs/Panthers are out-ranged by 10, panthers couldn't gap-close, good luck getting shrecks in range, and Pak40s would be countered by arty/Pack-Howies/Scotts/rocket arty by late-game. Every OST game would devolve into heavy TDs.

Before some says "just flank"; consider that maps like Redball and Whiteball exist, and are quite popular.