Penals - Why snares?

True. But you can do the same with pzgrens or at sturms. I don't see a reason why penals should have both snare and ptrs.

No because at least you will eat 240dmg if you charge PG and they will hit you again the moment you mess up pushing the model with the AT.
It doesn't matter if you push them around, the PS will be reloading anyway.

PTRS are a sustained based weapon that needs to be static and position itself in order to do damage.

agree, OP. They should get a flamer imo

It gives them edge over what? other AT squads that can simply finish off a snared tank using their handheld AT weapons without having to run up next to it nad spend munitions to finish it off?

The post I responded to suggested that you can get satcheled ONLY if you drive into penals. IMO it is not true. Very often you will hit a mine or get snared by cons or buttoned and the satchel will be used then. In the role that it was not intended for. Often the ZiS will need less time to finish the tank that was both snared and satcheled (very often ZiS won't have to chase and risk being decrewed). It happens a lot. Also remeber that penals are a counter to light vehicles and can only help deal with heavier tanks. You have ZiS and su85 for that. Also don't compare pzgrens that stop being effective anty infantry once they get shrecks, are more expensive and their upgrade is also more expensive. Still grens are only 4 men and must retreat before they can solo a vehicle. They can also be pushed around by vehicles.

Thats the whole point of AT Satchel, PTRS don't have the 240hp alpha strike like Schrecks do, they deal damage over time, satchels are there so you can't push Penals around with minimal consequences.

Seriously people if you don't go into melee range with AT penals satchels won't hurt you,

Not really. There are many more ways in which satchel can get you - unintended by design and imo more often used than the close in push situations.

No because at least you will eat 240dmg if you charge PG and they will hit you again the moment you mess up pushing the model with the AT.
It doesn't matter if you push them around, the PS will be reloading anyway.

PTRS are a sustained based weapon that needs to be static and position itself in order to do damage.

Still I feel it is easier to make pzgren dance with shrecks unable to shoot than ptrs penals. IMO it is also important to look at potential wipe risks here. With pzgrens you risk more if you want this 2nd volley to connect and are focus fired. I'd rather make stchels deal DMG and stun/shock for a moment than use engine crit, especially because it can crit engine of full health tank and there ar no crit repair option on axis pios.

The post I responded to suggested that you can get satcheled ONLY if you drive into penals. IMO it is not true. Very often you will hit a mine or get snared by cons or buttoned and the satchel will be used then. In the role that it was not intended for. Often the ZiS will need less time to finish the tank that was both snared and satcheled (very often ZiS won't have to chase and risk being decrewed). It happens a lot. Also remeber that penals are a counter to light vehicles and can only help deal with heavier tanks. You have ZiS and su85 for that. Also don't compare pzgrens that stop being effective anty infantry once they get shrecks, are more expensive and their upgrade is also more expensive. Still grens are only 4 men and must retreat before they can solo a vehicle. They can also be pushed around by vehicles.

Not really. There are many more ways in which satchel can get you - unintended by design and imo more often used than the close in push situations.

are you complaining that if a tank hits a mine, then gets hit by a 45mu satchel only available on a 300mp squad with a 160mp tier (combined with the other 160mp tier for the 360mp AT gun) and with a 60mu upgrade it will kill a tank faster than 360mp alone?

do you seriously think that 300mp and 60mu should JUST counter light vehicles? can you name other upgrades on infantry that have a limited window then they become 110% useless? pgrens become less effective with their shreks because they can knock off 1-3 a tanks health in a blink with 100% chance to pen all allied mediums. if they could retain their AI know what would happen? blobs. we know this because thats exactly what happened when they retained their AI.

penals AT is has the least burst of any stock AT options of any faction, as such they retain more AI. also due to tht lack of burst damage they need a way to keep enemy tanks from pushing them around (because they ARE an AT squad and thus need to fulfill their role- not, grens are NOT an AT squad.) you are complaining with literally zero understanding as to why it is the way it is.

all other hand AT carries the threat of putting a tank under the snare threshold in a blink. at rifles do not (this is also why guards have button, to let them use their weapon without being bum rushed and pushed around)

sit and think for half a second and it will start to make sense, but turn on the fan above the stove for the inevitable smoke that will start pouring out of your ears.

Still I feel it is easier to make pzgren dance with shrecks unable to shoot than ptrs penals. IMO it is also important to look at potential wipe risks here. With pzgrens you risk more if you want this 2nd volley to connect and are focus fired. I'd rather make stchels deal DMG and stun/shock for a moment than use engine crit, especially because it can crit engine of full health tank and there ar no crit repair option on axis pios.

Well then, I suppose its amazing that game is balanced around units intended performance against other units and not feelings of bad, low micro players.

are you complaining that if a tank hits a mine, then gets hit by a 45mu satchel only available on a 300mp squad with a 160mp tier (combined with the other 160mp tier for the 360mp AT gun) and with a 60mu upgrade it will kill a tank faster than 360mp alone?

do you seriously think that 300mp and 60mu should JUST counter light vehicles? can you name other upgrades on infantry that have a limited window then they become 110% useless? pgrens become less effective with their shreks because they can knock off 1-3 a tanks health in a blink with 100% chance to pen all allied mediums. if they could retain their AI know what would happen? blobs. we know this because thats exactly what happened when they retained their AI.

penals AT is has the least burst of any stock AT options of any faction, as such they retain more AI. also due to tht lack of burst damage they need a way to keep enemy tanks from pushing them around (because they ARE an AT squad and thus need to fulfill their role- not, grens are NOT an AT squad.) you are complaining with literally zero understanding as to why it is the way it is.

all other hand AT carries the threat of putting a tank under the snare threshold in a blink. at rifles do not (this is also why guards have button, to let them use their weapon without being bum rushed and pushed around)

sit and think for half a second and it will start to make sense, but turn on the fan above the stove for the inevitable smoke that will start pouring out of your ears.

While I agree with you completely on each of these points I wanna say 1 thing:
Aren't you a big rude? Like, you're right, but still feels like you're in rage and...that's bad, man.

While I agree with you completely on each of these points I wanna say 1 thing:
Aren't you a big rude? Like, you're right, but still feels like you're in rage and...that's bad, man.

From personal experience, that's what happens if you engage exceptionally dense people.
He'll grow skin thick enough to argue with them, but stop taking them seriously the moment they deflect reality instead of getting annoyed.

From personal experience, that's what happens if you engage exceptionally dense people.
He'll grow skin thick enough to argue with them, but stop taking them seriously the moment they deflect reality instead of getting annoyed.

I have such skin from playing CoH2 for 3k+ hours (5 or so years) through 2 accounts only. So I thought you gotta be somewhat nice on the forums.
I actually wanted to cry about how Ostheer is overbuffed now but I thought I am better than this.

are you complaining that if a tank hits a mine, then gets hit by a 45mu satchel only available on a 300mp squad with a 160mp tier (combined with the other 160mp tier for the 360mp AT gun) and with a 60mu upgrade it will kill a tank faster than 360mp alone?

No, I'm not. I'm only saying that there is an option to throw a satchel on such tank, which gives penals another tactical use possibility. It is not only 'a snare' that prevents penals from being rushed, like many people falsly claim, but a very effective tool to drain health from enemy tanks quickly. It is capable of destroying and crit dmging very expensive units. Because the upgrade is relatively cheap it can be very effective when used together with zis and other tanks/tank destroyers. It gives soviets and edge imo (plus they will be using ptrs on top of satchels).

do you seriously think that 300mp and 60mu should JUST counter light vehicles? can you name other upgrades on infantry that have a limited window then they become 110% useless? pgrens become less effective with their shreks because they can knock off 1-3 a tanks health in a blink with 100% chance to pen all allied mediums. if they could retain their AI know what would happen? blobs. we know this because thats exactly what happened when they retained their AI.

No, I never said that. It should be a hard couter to light vehicles but a soft counter to heavier vehicles. It is because of the price - it is only 60 munitions and you compare it to 100 for shrecks. Penals are only 300mp and you compare them to 360mp of pzgrens. Penals also don't lose that much of ai potential. Just don't expect penals to perform as well as pzgrens. Satchels move penals into being a bit too good. (It could probably be a better idea to give penals 100-120 muni upgrade (or the possibility to pay another 60 on top of the first 60) that would double the number of their ptrs rifles. Satchels wouldn't be stock and could be moved to some commander as an ability).

penals AT is has the least burst of any stock AT options of any faction, as such they retain more AI. also due to tht lack of burst damage they need a way to keep enemy tanks from pushing them around (because they ARE an AT squad and thus need to fulfill their role- not, grens are NOT an AT squad.) you are complaining with literally zero understanding as to why it is the way it is.

Again - it is all about the price. By going the penals tier you can't expect to live without zis. Sooner or later you will need it. Ptrs penals with 60 muni ugrade are good enough just with ptrs. Maybe a regular snare that crits engine only when the vehicle is not full health could be somehow sensible. When pzgrens are pushed and killed because they can't aim to shoot I understand you suggest to use combined arms and have a gren with faust nearby and a pak behind. Why penals should be different here?

all other hand AT carries the threat of putting a tank under the snare threshold in a blink. at rifles do not (this is also why guards have button, to let them use their weapon without being bum rushed and pushed around)

So what? Just like I wrote earlier. Don't expect 60 muni upgrade to cover all the weaknesses of a given tier. You can't expect people not to see certain advantages of satchels and ptrs rifles. You don't want units to be pushed around and the only option you think of is to give them nukes.

sit and think for half a second and it will start to make sense, but turn on the fan above the stove for the inevitable smoke that will start pouring out of your ears.

That is even funny. But it is not really related. Satchels become too powerful after you have all the tools to deal with tanks as Soviets. What you don't see is the fact that by giving them weapon that is supposed to help earlygame (and it does) you also give them a gamechanger lategame when there are su85 and ziss and other tanks on the field. Satchels in their current form make it too risky to dive and close in to deal with 60 range su85s, for example. The change to maybe crew shock instead of engine crit could be a good solution here.

Well then, I suppose its amazing that game is balanced around units intended performance against other units and not feelings of bad, low micro players.

Satchels are just too much of a nuke. Yet another reason why soviets are a bit OP in relation to other factions.

So remove PTRS upgrade and extend a little satchel range.

Penal should have an AT weapon to prevent vehicles from pushing them. It should simply not cause engine damage.

Satchels are just too much of a nuke. Yet another reason why soviets are a bit OP in relation to other factions.

Why is your tank so close to AT penals?
Its a deterrent, not offensive tool, if you're in its range, you fucked up by not scouting and rushing in blindly.

Why is your tank so close to AT penals?
Its a deterrent, not offensive tool, if you're in its range, you fucked up by not scouting and rushing in blindly.

Because it is charging an su85, for example?

The scouting - you must rush su85 as it outranges your tanks. It is enough that there is a relatively cheap 60muni upgraded squad around and you are dead. Scoutning will not help here. It just prevents you from rushing completely. Ant this is exactly the problem - Soviets have this super powerful nuke at grenade while other factions don't, and have to pay more for similar goodies. With Soviets there are too many relatively cheap things on their infantry that will make it impossible to rush long range tds.

Because it is charging an su85, for example?

Then you're using is as incorrectly as it can possibly be, because that's easiest way to lose a tank against any faction.

The scouting - you must rush su85 as it outranges your tanks. It is enough that there is a relatively cheap 60muni upgraded squad around and you are dead. Scoutning will not help here. It just prevents you from rushing completely. Ant this is exactly the problem - Soviets have this super powerful nuke at grenade while other factions don't, and have to pay more for similar goodies. With Soviets there are too many relatively cheap things on their infantry that will make it impossible to rush long range tds.

If you get hit by SU-85, regular AT nade will do the same, and since you're clearly charging blindly and forward, you will not be fully healed.
Since you're rushing without scouting or sweepers, you can hit a mine.
You can run into ATG.
You can run into med tank protecting it.

Everything in your scenario boils down to what I've said - reckless, stupid, suicidal play.

AT satchel are not your problem, bad decisions and wrong approaches are.

Then you're using is as incorrectly as it can possibly be, because that's easiest way to lose a tank against any faction.


If you get hit by SU-85, regular AT nade will do the same, and since you're clearly charging blindly and forward, you will not be fully healed.
Since you're rushing without scouting or sweepers, you can hit a mine.
You can run into ATG.
You can run into med tank protecting it.

Everything in your scenario boils down to what I've said - reckless, stupid, suicidal play.

AT satchel are not your problem, bad decisions and wrong approaches are.

No, no, no. The problem is that charging into Soviets is a bit more suicidal. Suicidal Vs more suicidal (in this scenario) or dangerous Vs more dangerous (in other scenarios). Scouting has nothing to do with satchels being a bit too nuke for relatively little investment. Really a shock for the crew with them would be better than engine crit. Sort of more sheer damage but less crippling than regular snare.

Charging blindly is suicidal regardless of faction...
That doesn't even require a discussion, even biggest noobs around here know that.

Charging blindly is suicidal regardless of faction...
That doesn't even require a discussion, even biggest noobs around here know that.

While it is all true it has nothing to do with the power of satchels.

In your very own scenario, it doesn't even matter its satchels.
Regular AT nade would lead to the same result and, as already well established, you should be nowhere near AT penals, unless you have specifically chosen to fuck up, you can kite them endlessly and they can't defend afgainst AI or generalist tank facing them frontally, so lets wrap this thread with L2P, which as per usual, it all boiled down to.