Poll: USF TD suggestion

Hah, you're right. What's even better is that I made that graph, so I should be able to read it.

I should have some time to update it this weekend, though. Any other suggestions?

It looks mostly correct off the top of my head on these values. I can't say I know all the units veterancy values such as AT guns, but I trust that if you've pulled these from a semi recent source they're probably accuracte. AT guns have not been changed besides the raketen in a long time.

The Su-76 pen values are 160/170/180 far/mid/near, and not 200/180 near/far as displayed in the graph.

Pershing armor needs to be lowered from 300 to 270

IS-2 armor now needs to be lowered from 375 to 340 since was lowered in patch today.

Jackson armor needs to be lowered from 130 to 110 "" "" "" "" "" "".

I suggest replacing the "Panther/stug/OST p4 vet 3" to "vet 2" since all of the armor buffs on these units get their armor at vet 2 and not vet 3.

And other tanks could be added as I suggested above. It's good as a quick reference sheet.

480 health was tried and judged a bad idea as they are just deleted at ease in team games. Jackson should be able to fight a jagdpanzer, lower DPS or HP just ruins that match up..

It was judged that way because it was their only stock AT vehicle... This thread is literally about changing that

M10 is perfectly suited for flanking and killing a JP4. JP4 is specifically meant to counter the Jackson anyway

It was judged that way because it was their only stock AT vehicle... This thread is literally about changing that

M10 is perfectly suited for flanking and killing a JP4. JP4 is specifically meant to counter the Jackson anyway

USF might as well be deleted from 4vs4 if their only AT will be m10s and 57mms.

There is just no viable way to flank a wall of panthers and JPs in team games, especially maps like redball or hamburg Jackson is the glue that keeps their late game playable.

It seems like mostly a good set of ideas. I wouldn't tweak the Jackson too much. Also, 480 health would make the Jackson worthless again, as it would die almost instantly in a tank battle in a larger team game.

USF might as well be deleted from 4vs4 if their only AT will be m10s and 57mms.

There is just no viable way to flank a wall of panthers and JPs in team games, especially maps like redball or hamburg Jackson is the glue that keeps their late game playable.

Thats a map issue. Most team game maps leave more room for flanking not less, so I have no clue how you can say that

If you add m10 Jackson needs more changes than accel/turret rotation nerf. There's no reason to give US a great medium killer/heavy-flanking specialist if m36 is still dominant against mediums, and strong against everything else

M36 should be a "heavy TD". That can be achieved with a number of changes like:

1) Lower accuracy remove accuracy vet bonuses
The gap in target size between mediums and super heavies has increased and can be increased even more by increasing the size of Super heavies.

With lowering the probability to hit one can reduce the effectiveness vs medium but keep the unit effective vs super heavies.

2) Have reload change be effected by range so that the unit becomes less effective at max range.

The unit currently has the mobility to kite and no reason to fight at any range other than max.

3) Reduce power level. Lower damage pop and cost so that one does not have to depend on single TD and in trouble if he loses it.

4) Adjust vet bonuses unit become to powerful once vetted.

This is not a jackson nerf attempt, it's not even a USF nerf. This thread is a CHANGE suggestion. An overall positive net change for all factions, USF included

Oh look, all the axis mains are once again trying to nerf the one unit that keeps USF late game together and gives allies a chance to push the heavies off the field they barely have access to themselves.

If I have to fight panthers with m10s, I'm uninstalling lel.

Honestly, just bump the fuel cost up to 155 instead of 145/140

This is not a jackson nerf attempt, it's not even a USF nerf. This thread is a CHANGE suggestion. An overall positive net change for all factions, USF included

You're talking about making a unit, and an entire faction worse than it is.

I'm sorry but Tiger and Panther tanks were not invincible armored behemoths in real life, there were an assortment of vehicles and guns that could kill them relitively easily. They were not invincible in real life I don't know why people expect that they should be in this game too.

Oh look, all the axis mains are once again trying to nerf the one unit that keeps USF late game together and gives allies a chance to push the heavies off the field they barely have access to themselves.

If I have to fight panthers with m10s, I'm uninstalling lel.

Honestly, just bump the fuel cost up to 155 instead of 145/140

You're talking about making a unit, and an entire faction worse than it is.

I'm sorry but Tiger and Panther tanks were not invincible armored behemoths in real life, there were an assortment of vehicles and guns that could kill them relitively easily. They were not invincible in real life I don't know why people expect that they should be in this game too.

You both know that with this change, the M36 would still be a stock unit, and that it would still be effective against heavies, right?

The point is to go from:
M36 -> Everything

To

M36 -> Heavies
M10 -> Mediums

You both seem to think (or at least, it comes across as) that the M10 would replace the M36, and the M36 would be deleted from the game. This isn't what the suggestion is, at all.

I may have said something that has already been pointed out and agreed with because my mind can't get so much information at the time (balance threads are gonna kill me one day). Bear with me, please.
BUT!
1. Yes. I think it should have Fuel price increased to 100, and MP to stay at 300 or even lowered a bit to 290, while its Penetration would be buffed a bit to be effective against stock PIV, Ostwind and Stug at all times, and OKW PIV at most times. I barely remember how exactly it penetrates, so you can correct me, but the last time I used it (as Brits actually) against a Panther it penetrated like 90% of the time. Could use some armour or health reduction if needed for the sake of being used in some sort of synergy. Would help to indicate the big difference between the M10 and M36 in that case. M10=effective at pretty much everything, but is more like a mobile Stug, so needs support; M36=effective at absolutely everything (well, maybe except like some mediums, idk) and needs support only against infantry.

2. M36 just needs to be unlocked at the same time Big Cats get out of their cages, but still, be not healthy, not very well armoured and rely on speed, (at this thing it wouldn't differ so much from M10 if it's added) AND punch. Maybe something like 100% penetration of Panther and a bit lowered on Bigger Cats, something like that.
I would suggest it take a certain upgrade path rather than adding to the cost of having it at all times, the path could be around 100MP-30Fuel to 120MP-40Fuel, while the cost of the unit itself could get a little decrease in MP cost, around 20, and remain the cost in fuel.

3. Well, I want it to be stock, just upgrade path, so yee.

And if I was mistaken in any of that, please tell me and I will correct myself. If I just repeated everyone before me-I apologize, I didn't have enough of that brainpower that day.

...Maybe something like 100% penetration of Panther and a bit lowered on Bigger Cats, something like that...

Now what is the point of even having armor in the Panther if it going to be hit and penetrated with 100% probability at range 60 by a cheaper TD?

...M36=effective at absolutely everything...

Now what it the point in building anything else since USF infantry can handle axis infatry?

You're talking about making a unit, and an entire faction worse than it is.

(offtopic)Show Spoiler

I am trying to gather people to share their thoughts about the topic, hopefully bring some good ideas and make the game better for everyone. I dont like that you recurr to personal addressment to make no point at all, but at least i can answer you back with a straight face.

I have by no means the solution to every perspective. It can only be achieved by good communication and proper feedback. I encourage you to rephrase yourself into a objective argumentation and i will share your point of view aswell

If you have no intention to participate, then stay quiet and leave those who want do their best.

I said it at the begining of the OP:

FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE, THERE IS NO NEED TO FLAME.

Now what is the point of even having armor in the Panther if it going to be hit and penetrated with 100% probability at range 60 by a cheaper TD?


Now what it the point in building anything else since USF infantry can handle axis infatry?

LOL no they cannot. USF doesn't get stock elite infantry like Obersoldaten or Panzergrenadiers. Nor do they get sqaud wiping satchels (which are laughably cheap and require no side teching).

I am still an awe about how dense this community is on the M36 Jackson.

snip

Cool!
I share the though of need for a Jackson as soon as the "big cats" heavy axis tanks come into play. Specially when they are rushed in stall strategies.

I understand i am calling to open the pandora box of lategame TDs but hopefully the chaos can be shaped along it is released.

M10 stock is being received very well as a possible step into a later Jackson. I hope that gives us all a hint to keep building a good idea. We have to pay attention that changing it will affect UKF.

Now what is the point of even having armor in the Panther if it going to be hit and penetrated with 100% probability at range 60 by a cheaper TD?


Now what it the point in building anything else since USF infantry can handle axis infatry?

1. What are you talking about, again? I said that the M36 is supposed to penetrate the smallest of the Big Cats at all times, the Panther, not the M10 being able to penetrate it at 100% of the time.
Again, M10=small, fragile, fast TD that can take on Mediums mostly and SOMETIMES Panthers, requires support against most foes, since it's easy to kill it. M36=good vs everything, but most often better against Big Cats, rather than Mediums, and requires only AI support.

2. That's a theme for a completely different forum. Don't be CODGUY but Axis version here for now, alroight m8?

1. What are you talking about, again? I said that the M36 is supposed to penetrate the smallest of the Big Cats at all times, the Panther, not the M10 being able to penetrate it at 100% of the time.
Again, M10=small, fragile, fast TD that can take on Mediums mostly and SOMETIMES Panthers, requires support against most foes, since it's easy to kill it. M36=good vs everything, but most often better against Big Cats, rather than Mediums, and requires only AI support.

2. That's a theme for a completely different forum. Don't be CODGUY but Axis version here for now, alroight m8?

And I am explaining to you that armor is core mechanism of the game. Giving a stock unit making a stock TDs have 100% to hit and penetrate from 60 all Ostheer units is the equivalent of removing that mechanism.

Pls stop personal comments they are non constructive.

And I am explaining to you that armor is core mechanism of the game. Giving a stock unit making a stock TDs have 100% to hit and penetrate from 60 all Ostheer units is the equivalent of removing that mechanism.

Pls stop personal comments they are non constructive.

Snipers and flamers don't seem to care much about units received accuracy and they seem to do fine.