Is the T70 OP?

For some strange reason Luch has a an accuracy modifier vs vehicles so it is not very good at it. It has lower accuracy and half the penetration of 222.

In general luch is not very good vs vehicles (even m3).

Luchs main gun is AI oriented.
222s main gun is AT oriented, it gets its AI from coax.

Not really a rocket science here.

Useability. If Luchs had stats of T70 lol community would cry like babies because of OPnes.

If Luchs had T70 stats, it would have 20 more fuel added to the cost and tech would be more expensive by at least another 20 fuel, meaning puma would also be delayed. Seems fair as there would be plenty of time to prepare a counter for both given 40 fuel in 1v1 could be 2 and could be 6 minutes, depending on map control.

Same could be said other way round.

Depending on the arrivel of AT-options. Luchs need to be way more close to be effective while T70 can operate on safe distance versus AI, even AT-inf. While Zis3 can support your AI Püppchen and PaK40 can't. T70 is an op troll vehicle, like clown-car. With all that other cost-effective stuff T70 overperforms, depending in map and RNG (hitting or not hitting...)

I don't say that because I can't deal with them, I say it because I know the stats and I am modding. And there are many things never should be made like they are ingame, for all fractions. T70 is one it.

But yes, all medium-lights arrive too early, while real lights became obsolet without real late-game useability.

Depending on the arrivel of AT-options. Luchs need to be way more close to be effective while T70 can operate on safe distance versus AI, even AT-inf. While Zis3 can support your AI Püppchen and PaK40 can't. T70 is an op troll vehicle, like clown-car. With all that other cost-effective stuff T70 overperforms, depending in map and RNG (hitting or not hitting...)

I don't say that because I can't deal with them, I say it because I know the stats and I am modding. And there are many things never should be made like they are ingame, for all fractions. T70 is one it.

But yes, all medium-lights arrive too early, while real lights became obsolet without real late-game useability.

I'm saying that if Soviet had a P2 on the field at the same time OKW can field one, it would be more broken than having 10 min T70 rush.

Demo charges were much more cancerous than Tellers. It was a good thing they got nerfed. As said previously, you can protect your vehicle with a sweeper nearby. You can't protect all your regular infantry with sweepers unless you want to go for engineer spam.

Teller mines are as strong as they are because Ostheer has no real LV and 4 man squads that are vulnerable to vehicles because of high reinforce cost and overall poor survivability.

IMO Teller mines are balanced. If OKW had them they would be OP I agree. But for Ost they are ok.

I agree it made the game better but the teller is no less cancorous then demo,s. The double standard is what gets me. People are complaing about the zis barrage now....

Demo,s where nearly twice the price and required rigging or manual input to detonate. The teller is almost place and forget.

The teller is easier to screen for indeed but loosing 270 mp and 75 fuel wich carries your mid game is far more devestating then loosing 1 or 2 out of 4 or 6 inf squads. So there was balance there imo.

Ost also has enough to compensate for 4 men squads and not having real light tank. Techless faust, better weappon teams as in ap ammo on the mg42 stun shot on pak and stugs, pgrens along side shrecks arriving earlier, faster to arrive lv,s, buffed ostwind, actual nades and overall higher dps, far more and more efficient healing wich none of have to be in base.

The teller needs to leave light tanks or assault guns with engine dammage and just enough health for a shreck or faust to finish it off. Its not like they can bounce that anyway but it gives allies a small chance to save their vehicles.

The problem is not the T70 cost, it's T3 fuel cost on top of basic upgrades such as AT nades + Molotovs.

The tech cost have been reduced over time again and again so I am not sure what the problem is. Are the Molotovs and AT nades necessary if someone is rushing a T-70? Soviet already get a either access to stock PTRS or to stock zis.

Actually we the tech cost have drop so much that there is almost no "medium phase" and we go from light vehicles to Super heavy...

Counter argument: move the cost to T4

Counter counter argument: say we "nerf" the T70 to P2 levels of performance and equal timing. NO ONE would want to face a soviet P2 at the same timing as OKW puts it on the field.

PzIV is an AI only vehicle (its performance vs vehicle is inferior to the 222) so if the T-70 had the same same cost it should inferior AI performance.

My point is simply T-70 performance is being justified due to its cost so simply reduce cost and performance so that unit may appear earlier but have less shock value. Then there would be reason for soviet to choose both the quad and the SU-76 instead.

My point is simply T-70 performance is being justified due to its cost so simply reduce cost and performance so that unit may appear earlier but have less shock value. Then there would be reason for soviet to choose both the quad and the SU-76 instead.

You’re wrong about the Quad AA, it’s great value and complements the T70 really well as a mid game spike.

The Su76 is useless and will keep being useless until they give it HE shells for free. The SU85 is way too good and too easy to get instead with the T2 meta.

snip

My point is simply T-70 performance is being justified due to its cost so simply reduce cost

Read again. Read carefully. It's not the T70 cost, it's the timing at which it appears and the equivalent amount of resources you pay at that point of the game (not total tech cost).

OKW:

4/5 units into P2

Truck: 15f 70mp
Mechanized: 45f 200mp
P2: 60f 265mp

Medic HQ: 200/25
Flak HT: 270/50

Healing: 45mu x stack

-10f initial

50f 270mp on tech
110f 535mp invested for a P2

USF:

3 Rifles, LT, support weapon/ambulance, into Stuart

LT: 35f 250mp
Upgrade: 20f 50mp
Ambulance: 10f 250mp
Weapon: 15f 150mp

Stuart: 70f 270mp
M20: 240/20
AAHT: 310/50

-20f initial

No ambulance, no weapon: 35f 300mp
With ambulance: 45f 550mp

Stuart no ambu: 105f 570mp
Including Ambu: 115f 820mp

Adding weapon: 130f 970mp

SU:
Either T1 opening or 3/4 Conscript with upgrades and T2/Doctrinal unit

T1: 10f 160mp
T2: 15f 160mp
Medics: 250mp
Molotovs: 10f 80mp
AT nade: 10f 125mp

T3: 85f 240mp

T70: 70f 260mp

-20f initial

T1 route with medic: 75f 650mp
T70: 145f 910mp

Conscript route, with upgrades T2: 100f 855mp
T70: 170f 1115mp
(you could discount molotov but i don't think it's realistic to skip AT nades)

OKW can play with 1/2 medic stacks through the early-mid game and will later or not back tech to medics which are expensive (Truck + Battle HQ + Medic = 55f 370mp) but this kind of teching let's them to be highly mp efficient early on while having access to a complete roster of tools (nades, snare, weapon, MG, AT).

PD: if i made any number mistake, MB. No malicious intent, just that i wrote this posts at different times and doing the math mentally.

Edit: adding OH / UKF

T1: 80/10
BP1: 100/40
Medic bunker: 150/0/60
T2: 100/20

222: 200/30
FHT: 200/30/90

-20f

T1, Medic, BP1, T2: 430/50
222/250: 630/80

Prostruppen/AG/Pio skip T1, Medic, BP1, T2: 350/40
222/250: 550/70

Bolster: 150/35
Grenades: 100/10
Weapons: 150/15

PCP: 180/30
AEC Req: 100/15

Aec: 280/60

Starting: -20f

Bolster, PCP, Aec req: 430/60
AEC: 710/120

You’re wrong about the Quad AA, it’s great value and complements the T70 really well as a mid game spike.

The Su76 is useless and will keep being useless until they give it HE shells for free. The SU85 is way too good and too easy to get instead with the T2 meta.

I did not say that Quad is bad in anyway.
SU-76 is a cost efficient unit.
T-70 is simply great and there is little reason to invest into any other T3 unit.

Read again. Read carefully. It's not the T70 cost, it's the timing at which it appears and the equivalent amount of resources you pay at that point of the game (not total tech cost).

I did not meant that you said but if you check the post the "T-70 is expensive and needs to be OP" is repeated again and again.

OKW can play with 1/2 medic stacks through the early-mid game and will later or not back tech to medics which are expensive (Truck + Battle HQ + Medic = 55f 370mp) but this kind of teching let's them to be highly mp efficient early on while having access to a complete roster of tools (nades, snare, weapon, MG, AT).

PD: if i made any number mistake, MB. No malicious intent, just that i wrote this posts at different times and doing the math mentally.

I did not check that math and I guess they are fine, but I fail to see the relevance to T-70. If OKW are highly MP efficient nerf them instead of buffing the other factions...

T-70 is simply great and there is little reason to invest into any other T3 unit.

There’s literally no reason why you shouldn’t invest 30 fuel in a Quad AA for mobile suppression and backline defense. I very often get it alongside the T70.

The Su76 is outshined by the SU85 even more than it used to since T2 (Zis) and snares on conscripts means you don’t need an emergency su76 anymore.

There’s literally no reason why you shouldn’t invest 30 fuel in a Quad AA for mobile suppression and backline defense. I very often get it alongside the T70.

Getting T4 and 7 men conscripts first is probably a better choice at least in 2vs2.

The Su76 is outshined by the SU85 even more than it used to since T2 (Zis) and snares on conscripts means you don’t need an emergency su76 anymore.

It is simply because SU-85 is OP, Su-76 might not be an attractive option but it is a cost efficient one.

I did not meant that you said but if you check the post the "T-70 is expensive and needs to be OP" is repeated again and again.


I did not check that math and I guess they are fine, but I fail to see the relevance to T-70. If OKW are highly MP efficient nerf them instead of buffing the other factions...

Your point: let's nerf T70 performance and make it cheaper.

My point: the offensive performance is there because SU has to spend shit ton of mp to unlock it and it arrives way later than all other light vehicles in the game.

No amount of cost reduction on the unit is gonna make it work. I purposely added USF as a comparison as well.
Could had done the same with UKF AEC but thought it was already enough. And OH doesn't have a light tank at all.

Slightly tone down Vet 2 on the T-70 and then also remove the reinforce cost reduction 7-man Cons get so they aren't like Ostruppen. But allow 7-man to be available once the Soviet player techs Tier 3, this could be too strong but with the Reload nerf and the reinforce cost remaining at 20 instead of 17, Cons would still be good and be able to get their upgrade way earlier reducing the need for the T-70 to be so potent in order to make up for their weaknesses.

Your point: let's nerf T70 performance and make it cheaper.

My point: the offensive performance is there because SU has to spend shit ton of mp to unlock it and it arrives way later than all other light vehicles in the game.

It not a light vehicle it is a light tank. If it arrives later it arrives later than OKW vehicles so delay those vehicles.

Lower the price of the T2 truck so it set up in the same time as T1 and have vehicle production (puma? Stuka?)require engineers. Now Puma comes later.

No amount of cost reduction on the unit is gonna make it work. I purposely added USF as a comparison as well.
Could had done the same with UKF AEC but thought it was already enough. And OH doesn't have a light tank at all.

This is OKW issue.

It not a light vehicle it is a light tank. If it arrives later it arrives later than OKW vehicles so delay those vehicles.

Lower the price of the T2 truck so it set up in the same time as T1 and have vehicle production (puma? Stuka?)require engineers. Now Puma comes later.


This is OKW issue.

Arguing about the semantics does not lead us anywhere.

Both OKWs LVs and the T70 arrive according to their cost and performance. There might be slight rebalances with some units but all in all it is okay.

I'm actually not sure what the current argument is about. The T70 is a very strong unit, but it also has the shortest time of all LVs where it can roam freely. OKW T2 has the perfect counter to it. Also the T1 FHT can significantly damage a T70.
OST is a bit on the short end since zhe T70 both amplifies the weakness of OST (4 man squads vs high wipe potential of the T70) and the lack of a LV counter. I find that a supported 222 can do the job decently. The autocanon can do decent damage especially vs the side armor. And no SOV player would dive his expensive T70 to kill a 222. It takes a lot more micro to pull off though. The other options OST has is a StuG rush or depensing on the map Panzerschrecks. Tellers can protect vs dives but it also requires a lot of skill and micro to bait units onto mines.


So, final conlusion of mine:
T70 is strong, but no major readjustments needed. OKW can counter the unit perfectly, OST might need a slight rework, but I think this is not specific due to the T70 but more the faction's power spikes in general.

I would conclude t70 is actually too weak in 2v2 and above. Too fragile with small window and nerf ability.

I think it needs some thing like a smoke at vet3 to be fair.