What is the REAL problem with Ost T4?

From 16 to 18 to 19*

Here's the match that probably led to the extra nerf: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wRMQjx3DePo

IMO Churchill shouldn't cost more pop than a Panther, it has allot of health sure, but it also feeds veterancy to AT units and tanks like no other. 19 pop made it very hard to keep a competitive army composition to support it (note: you already need to have allot of pop for repair units to keep it on the field).

Comparing with the Panther makes little sense, compare it with the Comet if you wish.

Panther is specialized vehicle Churchill is all around.

Imo actually Churchill should be redesign to be more infantry support less all around and then one can lower Pop...But all this is irrelevant to Ostheer T4.

But OKWs entire faction design is to be an elite army like the one fielded at the battle of the bulge, that's why you get stg engineers, obers that represent the waffen SS and a king tiger non doc.

Okw was designed differently and even then the panther was a mistake and the p4 was made stock. They were supposed to have easy access to elite units but at a price.
Their changed design is why a properly balanxed panther wont be possible as its far too easily accessible and easily spammed in team games where they can combine ost caches amd their own salvage ability. As always okw fucks up the potential for proper balance...

FF pop is not inflated. Here is the Pop of other "heavy TDs"

Panther 18
M-36 16
Su-85 15
FF 16

Actually SU-85 should have it pop increased to 16.
(And KV-1 to at 16).


Now can we move back to OStheer 4?

Heavy TD would be ele or JT. You just listed 60range TDs plus the panther and forgot the Jagdpanzer which is 14pop.

USF have no issue with fielding multiple 16pop Jackson's due to crew abuse.

So the only faction that suffers here is Brits. Soviets can field a KV-1 and SU-85 for 29 compared to church and FF combo that is a inflated 35.

And people wonder why British lag behind even when they reach late game. Especially with so many bolstered squads eating into popcap.

From 16 to 18 to 19*

Here's the match that probably led to the extra nerf: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wRMQjx3DePo

We'd never nerf or buff anything based on a single match. The Churchill Mk.VII was planned to become 19 popcap because spamming ~3 Churchills in teamgames (so with AT/TD support from teammates) was easy to execute and nearly unstoppable because of the immense HP pool and the lack of Axis non doctrinal units equipped to properly deal with it. It was changed to 18 initially as a precaution but then ultimately it was changed to 19 as originally planned. 19 popcap was supposed to keep an effective army composition (1 Churchill or 2 max, supported by a Firefly or ATGs) a viable strategy while discouraging full on Churchill spam.

That particular match only proved the point, but it wasn't the cause.

And people wonder why British lag behind even when they reach late game. Especially with so many bolstered squads eating into popcap.

Which further makes my case that bolster should be a squad by squad upgrade and 4 man tommies actually made viable. Then its easier to manage pop cap ontop of not having trash infantry at the price of semi elite infantry with a ahit tonne of fuel sidegrades attatched

Heavy TD would be ele or JT. You just listed 60range TDs plus the panther and forgot the Jagdpanzer which is 14pop.

Heavy TDs refers to TDs designed to to counter heavily armored vehicles, which I have listed. JT/Ele/ISU are super heavy vehicles.

JP is medium tank counter it should have its pop reduce to 12.

USF have no issue with fielding multiple 16pop Jackson's due to crew abuse.

Mark the word

So the only faction that suffers here is Brits. Soviets can field a KV-1 and SU-85 for 29 compared to church and FF combo that is a inflated 35.

And people wonder why British lag behind even when they reach late game. Especially with so many bolstered squads eating into popcap.

As pointed both KV-1 and SU-85 need a pop increase.

Again FF pop is not inflated it has a pop suited for counter to heavily armored vehicles.

According to the MOD team not even Churchill's pop is inflated...

We'd never nerf or buff anything based on a single match. The Churchill Mk.VII was planned to become 19 popcap because spamming ~3 Churchills in teamgames (so with AT/TD support from teammates) was easy to execute and nearly unstoppable because of the immense HP pool and the lack of Axis non doctrinal units equipped to properly deal with it. It was changed to 18 initially as a precaution but then ultimately it was changed to 19 as originally planned. 19 popcap was supposed to keep an effective army composition (1 Churchill or 2 max, supported by a Firefly or ATGs) a viable strategy while discouraging full on Churchill spam.

That particular match only proved the point, but it wasn't the cause.

Did you guys not factor in 3vs3 and up players can field as many panthers or Churchill's as they like due to the absence of any infantry backbone that 1vs1 requires? Every game will have its autobot repair truck/station blob (true allies only get them doctrinally, but almost all sov and ukf 4s commanders has a repair ability) so you only need a token infantry force and can spam plenty of armor as you please.

This is a major reason why UKF remain competitive in 4vs4 but you have the likes of asha or Hans highlighting their popcap in 1s. The Churchill pop nerf hit in nowhere but 1vs1, and it hit the tank hard.

Surely a mp and slight fuel increase would have been the better fix for all game modes.

Did you guys not factor in 3vs3 and up players can field as many panthers or Churchill's as they like due to the absence of any infantry backbone that 1vs1 requires?

Given Sander39 is the balance team's resident teamgame expert, I suspect he knows what he's talking about.

Did you guys not factor in 3vs3 and up players can field as many panthers or Churchill's as they like due to the absence of any infantry backbone that 1vs1 requires?

Measures like these are meant to discourage certain playstyles, not to remove them completely. The player's freedom to build what they want is sacred, but sometimes measures need to be taken because certain builds or strategies are not fun to play against or downright overpowered. Measures that limit this freedom are always kept as minimal as possible however.

It wasn't the intention to outright remove Churchill spam, or we would've taken even more drastic measures. The intention was to discourage it by removing the ability to field a significant supporting army besides a bunch of Churchills. If a player can make 3x 19 pop Churchills and some supporting engineers (leaving practically no popcap for any other units) work, then good for them. But personally I've seen a significant reduction in Churchill spam in teamgames with more healthy army compositions being used instead.

Even if popcap is an issue in 1v1 (I don't really know because I don't play it), we can't give the UKF a number of unconventional buffs and buff their popcap in the same patch. First we'll have to see where the faction lands after the big changes currently planned (medics, Assault Officer, Pyro smoke barrage, etc.) before we do any more significant adjustments.

Surely a mp and slight fuel increase would have been the better fix for all game modes.

Resources hardly matter either in the average teamgame, with the abundance of caches and the relative absence of contest over resource sectors. I highly doubt a cost increase would've had the desired effect. Popcap is significantly more restricting than resources in a mode that has players floating vast amounts of resources on a regular basis.

Someone forgot to tell Hans that brummbar is super up and needs buffs and he, being unaware, got it to vet3 by wrecking everything that has legs with it.

The Churchill Mk.VII was planned to become 19 popcap because spamming ~3 Churchills in teamgames (so with AT/TD support from teammates) was easy to execute and nearly unstoppable because of the immense HP pool and the lack of Axis non doctrinal units equipped to properly deal with it.

Very questionable statement TBH.

First of all I have never seen anyone build 3 Churchills in any game mode ever.

Second Axis has a million counters to Churchills. I don't know why anyone would think they don't.

Saying 3 Churchills is OP in 3v3 and 4v4 seems very strange to me when Axis fields Tigers, Elefants, JT, Panthers in every 3v3 and 4v4 and all of them eat Churchills for breakfast.

Someone forgot to tell Hans that brummbar is super up and needs buffs and he, being unaware, got it to vet3 by wrecking everything that has legs with it.

Well HelpingHans would reck me with Pioneer spam, so I'm not surprised.

Very questionable statement TBH.

First of all I have never seen anyone build 3 Churchills in any game mode ever.

Second Axis has a million counters to Churchills. I don't know why anyone would think they don't.

Saying 3 Churchills is OP in 3v3 and 4v4 seems very strange to me when Axis fields Tigers, Elefants, JT, Panthers in every 3v3 and 4v4 and all of them eat Churchills for breakfast.

CpSprice probably. Polish OP

Someone forgot to tell Hans that brummbar is super up and needs buffs and he, being unaware, got it to vet3 by wrecking everything that has legs with it.

Katitof stop trolling. Brummbar is UP, not dead. You can still use it. I made great use of it vs Refero today. So what? It has a niche use if you use it properly but it's very obvious the unit needs help, which is why it's getting an armour buff.

The REAL problem with T4 is that why the hell would I ever go for a panther instead of Tiger in 1v1?

"but you might wanna go for different commander"

Even though some commanders have nice gadgets and tricks, those still always lose to having an actual competitive late game in form of tiger. There is no other commanders besides tiger ones that offers you pure brute force better units than your opponent fields.

The only two options that there are to this dilemma are to either nerf tigers and heavies back to shit or to change panther to have HE shell. No one is ever going to go for panther instead of tiger in 1v1 if panther does not have at least the AI capability of P4.

I guess at this point the relic is going to solve the problem of useless T4 in 1v1s by nerfing T3 and heavies and thus putting t4 to its "best place so far".

Nerfing Ost t3 and heavies sound like a fresh idea. It may work, as you can call in t4 in 1v1 and in 4v4 Ost wont dominate with team strategy. There is a weaker mid game.

We should try that!
Ostwind definitely need a tone down. It shreds infantry when stationery and then it just blitz out.
P4 could come down in performance around Cromwell, this has doubled goodness to make ukf less shitty faction.
Stug..i don't know, maybe make its mp higher.

Well HelpingHans would reck me with Pioneer spam, so I'm not surprised.

He wrecked Jove and VonAsten tho, so....
I'm sure he has vods saved, check last night.

He wrecked Jove and VonAsten tho, so....
I'm sure he has vods saved, check last night.

Game is on tightrope cast.
If Soviet is best faction. Then why did double soviet got rekt by ost+okw?

HH team got off to slow start but axis op late game armour made eZ comeback. Hans show that Brum is perfect fine without armor buff and IS2 is average even with 375 armor

7 men cons? No problems for brumbar. Both axis players didn't even need rocket arty and they still rekt allies

Brummbar is UP

It has a niche use

Erm... I see you in Twitch stream chats all the time - are you watching the same games that I am? Brummbaer is the most efficient non-doctrinal late-game Ostheer unit, wiping infantry and support weapon teams left and right while USF/UKF AT guns struggle against it. It's more than fine the way it is.

Erm... I see you in Twitch stream chats all the time - are you watching the same games that I am? Brummbaer is the most efficient non-doctrinal late-game Ostheer unit, wiping infantry and support weapon teams left and right while USF/UKF AT guns struggle against it. It's more than fine the way it is.

UP with a niche use isn't bad. I actually like the unit, but that doesn't mean I get it all the time in any situation. If you feel like it's so amazing, power to you, but there's a reason it's getting buffed.