A redesign of Sherman

USF a number of different version available :

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number of times used in the World Championship tournament.

Cost:
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Suggestions M4A3(76) Sherman:
Cost from 380/125 to 350/120 same as Ostheer Panzer IV
Pintle gun "Sherman top gunner" replaced by the standard USF gunner.
Vet bonus the same with M4A3 Sherman
Single type of munitions
ROF the same as with M4A3 Sherman
Penetration values 120/125/135

Now stock. With these values it should be able to have almost the same chance to penetrate the PzIV as the PzIV has to penetrate the Sherman and while being more accurate on the move.
(Imo the OStheer PzIV should be more cost efficient than Sherman since Ostheer are inferior up to this point, lets say that PzIV vs Sherman 76 should be around 55/45).

M4A3 now doctrinal as is.
Sherman Easy8 as is.
105mm Dozer as is or remove the blade (if possible) and make the upgrade available to M4A3. (Could also be redesigned to be an infatry support tank and moved to Rifle company )
M36 redesigned vs Super heavies only. (Could have accuracy/ROF lowered damage increase if there a need).

Basically the change removes HE rounds from stock while making the Sherman a decent counter to Ostheer PzIV.

So the player can now go Easy 8s vs OKW PzIV or for M4A3/105mm dozers if he want extra AI.

One could even take it a bit further and have:
M4A3 Sherman reduce armor penetration of AP round a abit and have cost reduced to around 90-100 closer to T-34/7/Ostwind doctrinal.

One versions of Dozer either 105mm or M4A3

M4A3(76) Sherman about Ostheer PzIV pwer level

Sherman Easy8 avout OKW Power level

105mm Sherman with design that could be Brumbar style (current one), mini Churhcill (infatry support Tank) or min KV-2.

(edited some things)

What's wrong with the current Sherman? The problem unit in the USF lineup is the Jackson. The Sherman's a well-implemented medium.

What's wrong with the current Sherman? The problem unit in the USF lineup is the Jackson. The Sherman's a well-implemented medium.

There is nothing wrong with the Sherman.

Sherman is great leaving little room for other versions.
M36 is OP leaving little room for Sherman.

I am simply tired of reading how USF will collapse without having the M36 being OP so this suggestions allows:
1) M36 to be nerfed vs PzIV since the Sherman 76 will be able to fight the PzIV
2) more room for all versions of Sherman since the current M4A3 Sherman can do both AI and AT decently (AI actually superb)
3) No more claims Easy8s needs a buff because M4A3+M36 is better than 2 Easy8s
4) No more claims the 105mm Dozer needs a buff because M4A3 has HE rounds
5) With a nerf to M36 more reason for Ostheer/OKW to build a PzIV

Don't think Sherman needs any changes. USF doesn't really struggle killing mediums. And I agree with Lago the Jackson is where the problems start

Basically the change removes HE rounds from stock.

Lmao no

There is nothing wrong with the Sherman.

Then stay away from it?
Game is perfectly balanced atm if you're trying to clutch to literally any allied unit to complain.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the sherman. I am a bit anxious about the idea that there are axis players out there who want to nerf them.

Yes let's further remove any remaining flavors between the factions and have dueling medium tank clones. Much excitement.

Suggestions M4A3(76) Sherman:
Cost from 380/125 to 350/120 same as Ostheer Panzer IV
Pintle gun "Sherman top gunner" replaced by the standard USF gunner.
Vet bonus the same with M4A3 Sherman
Single type of munitions
ROF the same as with M4A3 Sherman
Penetration values 120/125/135

You would literally have to force people at gunpoint to build this. Maybe if you gave it the same (exact) AOE as the P4 it would be barely useable as a generalist, but T3 is the Ostheer power spike as is and it still has to face off against 230+ armor OKW and vet 2 Ostheer P4s. Why would anyone at all ever build this?

Now stock. With these values it should be able to have almost the same chance to penetrate the PzIV as the PzIV has to penetrate the Sherman and while being more accurate on the move.
(Imo the OStheer PzIV should be more cost efficient than Sherman since Ostheer are inferior up to this point, lets say that PzIV vs Sherman 76 should be around 55/45).

Ostheer P4s get armor at veterancy… You can't make the Sherman trash at AI and cripple it's AT capability at the same time.

M4A3 now doctrinal as is.

The 76mm Sherman was an uncommon unit amongst the US Army given that tank units preferred the lower velocity/stress HE shells of the 75mm gun for killing AT guns, which were more often a bigger threat than German armor. Making the 75mm doctrinal seems backwards.

Sherman Easy8 as is.

Does it not occur to you that this proposal creates essentially an even more inferior version of the E8? Only this AT-focused medium tank lacks the extra HP, armor, and penetration that would allow it to actually fight vet 2 P4 or OKW P4s. Both are useless versus anything higher, and offer no meaningful AI edge, so anyone with a brain would just build an ATG or M36 so they have some actual scaling and don't roll over and die the moment a heavy hits the field. I will reiterate what should be obvious to anyone who plays Rifle company at all that even deleting the M36 would not make the E8 meta.

105mm Dozer as is or remove the blade (if possible) and make the upgrade available to M4A3. (Could also be redesigned to be an infatry support tank and moved to Rifle company )

Upgrading tanks into completely different tanks is stupid. NGL. I'm so glad we finally ditched that concept from vCOH and absolutely do not want it back. I don't know why on earth you'd want the dozer blade gone from it in any case. Just removing utility for no reason I suppose.

M36 redesigned vs Super heavies only. (Could have accuracy/ROF lowered damage increase if there a need).

OK

Basically the change removes HE rounds from stock while making the Sherman a decent counter to Ostheer PzIV.

Until it hits vet 2. This is a really slim window of usefulness for a unit which would have worse AI than even the T-34/76 (compare AOE stats if you don't believe me). I reiterate nobody is going to sink these resources into countering exactly one unit on the roster of one faction when that same unit becomes vastly superior in only a few minutes time and can be replaced by an even more superior Panther which this unit would have no hope in hell of ever fighting.

So the player can not go Easy 8s vs OKW PzIV or for M4A3/105mm dozers if he want extra AI.

This sentence is confusing as fuck. Im going to assume you mean to say "can go" instead of "can not go". Again, paying same amount of resources to counter exactly one unit in the enemy roster which then becomes completely useless afterwards is not going to work. The M4A3 currently fits the meta because it has great AI and passable AT in a pinch. It is not made to counter Panzer IVs from either faction and that's worked fine so far. The question of how much the dynamic will change if the M36 is reworked is an important one but this is by no means the solution.

I believe USF shermans aren't picked over the M4A3 due to the fact that the only role that sherman can perform is AI and M4A3 standard sherman is the best at it due to HE shells. Were other sherman variants a meaningful improvement in AT department, they would be picked more, but as they are not, Jackson is better AT, M4A3 is better AI. They could perform the AT role better if the premium medium, heavy armour and TD balance got reworked. - This is the introduction that I forgot lol

TL;DR TDs are mostly so strong because Mediums stand 0 chance vs stock Panther, therefore TDs have to be strong to fight Panthers. You don't build Mediums to serve as AT, therefore you don't pick better AT shermans. You build shermans mostly for AI, M4A3 is the best at this role.

If you brought HP of Panther down to 800 and its armour down to 240 and dropped all TD range to 55 and lowered TD ROF bonuses from veterancy slightly, mediums would be relatively stronger vs Panthers and Panthers would be fighting on relatively better terms with TDs with just very minor 5 range difference. What would have to follow is also other heavy vehicle rebalance with mostly HP, armour or ROF decrease not to disturb current IS2, Pershing, Tiger, Panther balance.

If you care to try to understand my way of thinking and why I would drop Panther health and armour to said values and apply other vehicle changes, its due to a fact that currently Panther armour doesn't help vs TDs much and combined with high HP pool, it breaks the balance between Mediums and Panthers. Usually the time-to-kill problems appear when the source of damage is doubled, just as 2 Raks are way more dangerous to Mediums than a single Rak, same is true for TDs. With 2 TDs new Panther would live at least as long as the old Panther. Decreased TD range by 5 would also give panther better chance to fire back at the TDs. Mediums would be actually able to threaten the Panther at least a little. Currently the player is supposed to use mediums by flanking, but with all the phasing bullshit and tanks driving through each other every now and then, it can be a really frustrating mechanic. Also flanking like that is not possible on some maps and in some gamemodes which makes Mediums shite and encourages TD spam.

When I say all TDs I mean SU85, SU76, Firefly, Jackson and JP4. Puma should go down to 45, Stug might need price increase to 100 fuel. AT guns would not be affected and stay with 60 range improving teamweapon-vehicle synergy when fighting TD-heavy enemy. I would also drop armour, HP or ROF on Jagdtiger and Elefant by a little to compensate for the lower TD range. ISU-152 HE shell should be ~60 range too. Its AP shell has SU85-like performance anyway.

All in all this is just an idea trying to address the problem of Medium/Panther/TD balance. Every other vehicle problem starts exactly there. I am pretty sure that churchill would have slightly lower HP too, popcap and cost might need minor modifications across the board. This I believe is the change that would improve the game but I think it is too late for such big changes that risk breaking the game. Was fun to type stuff on the Internet.

The Sherman is fine as it is.

I would like to see the panther/heavy tanks get a nerf so we can viably look at changing the TD meta.

You would literally have to force people at gunpoint to build this. Maybe if you gave it the same (exact) AOE as the P4 it would be barely useable as a generalist, but T3 is the Ostheer power spike as is and it still has to face off against 230+ armor OKW and vet 2 Ostheer P4s. Why would anyone at all ever build this?

It AOE could be improved if needed although I have not seen many complain about the 76mm AI capability. As I a pointed Easy8 would be able to face the OKW PzIV.

Ostheer P4s get armor at veterancy… You can't make the Sherman trash at AI and cripple it's AT capability at the same time.

And that simply mean that it a vetted PzIV would actually be worth instead of being hit and penetrated with 100% by M36. The argument so far is that the USF need something to counter the PzIV and the 76mm can do that. If vetted PzIV prove to strong add an 125% vet 2 penetration bonus.

The 76mm Sherman was an uncommon unit amongst the US Army given that tank units preferred the lower velocity/stress HE shells of the 75mm gun for killing AT guns, which were more often a bigger threat than German armor. Making the 75mm doctrinal seems backwards.

Pls no historical arguments.

Does it not occur to you that this proposal creates essentially an even more inferior version of the E8? Only this AT-focused medium tank lacks the extra HP, armor, and penetration that would allow it to actually fight vet 2 P4 or OKW P4s. Both are useless versus anything higher, and offer no meaningful AI edge, so anyone with a brain would just build an ATG or M36 so they have some actual scaling and don't roll over and die the moment a heavy hits the field. I will reiterate what should be obvious to anyone who plays Rifle company at all that even deleting the M36 would not make the E8 meta.

No I do not see how the proposal creates an inferior Easy8 the proposals creates a main battle that has lower power level than Easy8. Actually I have not seen allot people complaining about the 76mm AI performance.

Upgrading tanks into completely different tanks is stupid. NGL. I'm so glad we finally ditched that concept from vCOH and absolutely do not want it back. I don't know why on earth you'd want the dozer blade gone from it in any case. Just removing utility for no reason I suppose.

Read more carefully. The suggestions is to remove the dozer blade from 105mm, then it can be added as an upgrade for the M4A3. The is very little reason for 2 dozer Sherman version to exist one 75mm and one 105mm.

Until it hits vet 2. This is a really slim window of usefulness for a unit which would have worse AI than even the T-34/76 (compare AOE stats if you don't believe me). I reiterate nobody is going to sink these resources into countering exactly one unit on the roster of one faction when that same unit becomes vastly superior in only a few minutes time and can be replaced by an even more superior Panther which this unit would have no hope in hell of ever fighting.

As explained AI can be increased if there is a need for it.
USF have an advantage in early game thus Ostheer should have an advantage in T3 game

The Panther is too be counted by M36 not Sherman.

As for the T-34/76 it has excellent AI capabilities so I am not sure why you want to bring it up or why in your opinion the Sherman should have better AI, better AT, better armor and Crew.

...Again, paying same amount of resources to counter exactly one unit in the enemy roster which then becomes completely useless afterwards is not going to work. The M4A3 currently fits the meta because it has great AI and passable AT in a pinch. It is not made to counter Panzer IVs from either faction and that's worked fine so far. The question of how much the dynamic will change if the M36 is reworked is an important one but this is by no means the solution.

The Sherman is not a dedicated counter like a TD, it is an all around tank so I am not sure what you expect it to do. You want to be able counter infatry, counter PzIV and counter the Panther?

With a similar cost with PzIV and better moving accuracy, smoke and crew I am not sure why in your opinion it should be able to take out a PzIV easily.

It AOE could be improved if needed although I have not seen many complain about the 76mm AI capability. As I a pointed Easy8 would be able to face the OKW PzIV.

People don't complain about the 76mm AI because it isn't purchased to fight infantry. It already fills the role you describe here, right now, with this very proposal aiming to nerf that attribute AND remove generalist/AI options from the stock USF roster.

The easy 8, you also pointed out, is to remain doctrinal, so are you just suggesting USF only use one or two doctrines vs OKW?

And that simply mean that it a vetted PzIV would actually be worth instead of being hit and penetrated with 100% by M36. The argument so far is that the USF need something to counter the PzIV and the 76mm can do that. If vetted PzIV prove to strong add an 125% vet 2 penetration bonus.

Except
1. You offer to rework the M36 into an anti-heavy TD here.
and
2. The M36 will still, if an anti-heavy TD, penetrate the vetted P4 100%.

I was talking about the Sherman, which you say REPEATEDLY in this proposal would be a counter to the Panzer IV. And yes, it would absolutely struggle versus the vet 2 P4 which is comparable to the OKW P4 that you have already established this unit (the reworked 76mm Sherman) would not be able to fight.

Pls no historical arguments.

It's a WW2 game, so good luck with that. Casually disgregarding historical facts to meet stupid and pointless balance attributes hasn't helped CoH2 any at all.

No I do not see how the proposal creates an inferior Easy8 the proposals creates a main battle that has lower power level than Easy8 but with better AI. Actually I have not seen allot people complaining about the 76mm AI performance.

...Do you even know what the 76mm Sherman or Easy 8's AI capabilities are like? Currently the 76mm has arguably worse AI than the E8 by virtue of a smaller AOE, and worse scatter, offset by a much higher ROF. This proposal, besides nerfing the 76mm's AT capabilities, would also reduce it's ROF, and made no comment on increasing it's AI abilities, so the 76mm outlined in this proposal would have worse AI and AT than the E8. You also want to remove the Soviet holdover 50 cal upgrade for the more expensive and IIRC inferior USF one which is again a nerf to AI.

Again, people don't complain about the 76mm's AI since they don't really expect it to fight infantry. (The M4A3 is a much better option in this case). The fact it currently shoots ridiculously fast in any case doesn't hurt.

Read more carefully. The suggestions is to remove the dozer blade from 105mm, then it can be added as an upgrade for the M4A3. The is very little reason for 2 dozer Sherman version to exist one 75mm and one 105mm.

There's even less reason to remove it for either vehicle.

As explained AI can be increased if there is a need for it.
USF have an advantage in early game thus Ostheer should have an advantage in T3 game

The Panther is too be counted by M36 not Sherman.

Which brings me back to my first point, which is that nobody will build this unit since an ATG or even a nerfed M36 will be a smarter investment.

As for the T-34/76 it has excellent AI capabilities so I am not sure why you want to bring it up or why in your opinion the Sherman should have better AI, better AT, better armor and Crew.

The T-34/76's AI capabilities come from it's very good hull MG dps, not from it's main gun, which is more or less universally considered subpar. And that is directly the attribute which I am referring to when I talked about the T-34/76's AI, which is why I brought up the AOE, as the 76mm's main gun is actually worse in this regard.

The Sherman is not a dedicated counter is an all around tank so I am not sure what you expect it to counter infatry, counter PzIV and counter Panther?

You have mentioned like a half-dozen times that this unit would counter the Ostheer P4 (at least until vet 2). It would also have the worst AI of any medium tank in game if we implemented it with only the changes you outlined in your original post. So, yeah, unless you buffed the AI (say, to P4 levels?) nobody would build this unit since it'd be neither a generalist nor a counter to, well, anything I guess, since I guess you do not actually expect it to counter the P4 either.

Of course, instead of buffing the 76mm's AI capabilities, one could stick to the status quo with the current M4A3.

With a similar cost and better moving accuracy, smoke and crew I am not sure why in your opinion it should be able to take out a PzIV with easy.

What the hell do you expect it to do then? Gimped AI, gimped AT, what do you expect a USF player to buy this unit for? To deploy smoke with it? Kill 222s? Nobody would buy this unit. It's a terrible proposal. I'm sorry.

People don't complain about the 76mm AI because it isn't purchased to fight infantry. It already fills the role you describe here, right now, with this very proposal aiming to nerf that attribute AND remove generalist/AI options from the stock USF roster.

The easy 8, you also pointed out, is to remain doctrinal, so are you just suggesting USF only use one or two doctrines vs OKW?

No I am suggesting of lowering the power level since it will also become cheaper.

Except
1. You offer to rework the M36 into an anti-heavy TD here.
and
2. The M36 will still, if an anti-heavy TD, penetrate the vetted P4 100%.

And the suggestion is to reduce it accuracy/ROF so it can hit the Super heavies but not the PzIV with 100% at range 60...

I was talking about the Sherman, which you say REPEATEDLY in this proposal would be a counter to the Panzer IV. And yes, it would absolutely struggle versus the vet 2 P4 which is comparable to the OKW P4 that you have already established this unit (the reworked 76mm Sherman) would not be able to fight.

So a vet 2 PzIV would help ostheer fight back the problem here is what exactly? That USF do not have AT options?

It's a WW2 game, so good luck with that. Casually disgregarding historical facts to meet stupid and pointless balance attributes hasn't helped CoH2 any at all.

Great like make Ostwind doctrinal because very few where produced and because it will make you happy.

...Do you even know what the 76mm Sherman or Easy 8's AI capabilities are like? Currently the 76mm has arguably worse AI than the E8 by virtue of a smaller AOE, offset by a much higher ROF. This proposal, besides nerfing the 76mm's AT capabilities, would also reduce it's ROF, and made no comment on increasing it's AI abilities, so the 76mm outlined in this proposal would have worse AI and AT than the E8. You also want to remove the Soviet holdover 50 cal upgrade for the more expensive and IIRC inferior USF one which is again a nerf to AI.

How many times do ?I have to repeat this. If the 76mm need more AI it can be improved.

The Soviet 0.50 is simply broken and it should be removed.

Again, people don't complain about the 76mm's AI since they don't really expect it to fight infantry. (The M4A3 is a much better option in this case). The fact it currently shoots ridiculously fast in any case doesn't hurt.

Pls stop fixating on the AI of the main gun if that is you problem will make the AI identical to M4A3 will that make you happy?

There's even less reason to remove it for either vehicle.

Yes there is, it allow different units to bring different things to the table

Which brings me back to my first point, which is that nobody will build this unit since an ATG or even a nerfed M36 will be a smarter investment.

Not if the M36 becomes less cost efficient vs PzIVs

You have mentioned like a half-dozen times that this unit would counter the Ostheer P4 (at least until vet 2). It would also have the worst AI of any medium tank in game if we implemented it with only the changes you outlined in your original post. So, yeah, unless you buffed the AI (say, to P4 levels?) nobody would build this unit since it'd be neither a generalist nor a counter to, well, anything I guess, since I guess you do not actually expect it to counter the P4 either.

what the hell do you expect it to do then? Gimped AI, gimped AT, what do you expect a USF player to buy this unit for? To deploy smoke with it? Kill 222s? Nobody would buy this unit. It's a terrible proposal. I'm sorry.

You really started to sound like broken record...

Unless you have not read correctly I suggested a price decrease. Since it seem hard for you to understand think of it as adding 10 fuel to the cost M4A3 Sherman and increasing its penetration so that is has the match is more even (and removing the HE rounds).

No I am suggesting of lowering the power level since it will also become cheaper.

It's a massive nerf dude. Do you really honestly think anyone here believes that lowering the price of the 76mm by 30 manpower and 5 fuel would make up for the loss of HVAP, main gun penetration, main gun rate of fire, better veterancy, AND the loss of a cheaper and superior MG upgrade? This is a nerf. Don't even bother trying to play semantics with it.

And the suggestion is to reduce it accuracy/ROF so it can hit the Super heavies but not the PzIV with 100% at range 60...

Okay... but you specifically mentioned penetration, so...

So a vet 2 PzIV would help ostheer fight back the problem here is what exactly? That USF do not have AT options?

The problem is the same that I have told you maybe four or five times now: nobody would buy this unit. If it is going to have inferior AI and inferior AT there is no reason to waste resources on it when you could invest in superior AT that is actually relevant into the late game or superior AI. I don't know how you can see my write this out and think that I am complaining for lack of options in countering the Panzer IV; it is you who has suggested that this unit be balanced around the Ostheer P4 matchup.

Great like make Ostwind doctrinal because very few where produced and because it will make you happy.

It actually would, quite a bit. Sadly it is a bit too late in the game's life cycle for such changes, particularly as Relic will not be providing us with any new models of units with which to replace it.

How many times do ?I have to repeat this. If the 76mm need more AI it can be improved.

The Soviet 0.50 is simply broken and it should be removed.


Pls stop fixating on the AI of the main gun if that is you problem will make the AI identical to M4A3 will that make you happy?

If the AI is to be buffed to M4A3 levels, why not just use the M4A3? Why go through this whole series of changes at all?

Yes there is, it allow different units to bring different things to the table

This whole series of needless changes seems more likely to delete units from play entirely than anything else.

Not if the M36 becomes less cost efficient vs PzIVs

It doesn't matter, because unlike the 76mm in this proposal the M36 actually has a future going into the late game.

You really started to sound like broken record...

That would require you to listen to me first.

Unless you have not read correctly I suggested a price decrease. Since it seem hard for you to understand think of it as adding 10 fuel to the cost M4A3 Sherman and increasing its penetration so that is has the match is more even (and removing the HE rounds).

What I am hearing is a massive change to the stock USF medium tank, changing its focus completely from a competent AI unit with some AT capability to a piss-poor "generalist" with marginally better AT but massively worse AI capabilities, and then making it more expensive on top of things.

The result would be nobody builds 76mm Shermans and we probably see a lot more people going Captain for ATGs or Armor Company for M10s.

(Or whatever lucky doctrine gets the normal M4A3)

Great let me here you description of Sherman that would be enough to deal with PzIV and allow the M36 to nerfed.

Great let me here you description of Sherman that would be enough to deal with PzIV and allow the M36 to nerfed.

Except the M4 can easily hold off a Panzer IV and you don't need an M36 to survive Panzer IVs sooooooo

The real issue comes from not having AT guns because Lelic thought giving MGs to the LT and ATGs to the Cpt was a great idea.

Great let me here you description of Sherman that would be enough to deal with PzIV and allow the M36 to nerfed.

How do you go from implying USF has tons of AT options for dealing with the Panzer IV to there only being the M36?

A M4A3 with support from ATGs or bazookas can deal with a Panzer IV adequately enough, and as it is the close range penetration of the M4A3 is fine versus the Ostheer Panzer IV (fun fact, the M4A3 AP shots have more close range penetration than the 76mm AP profile proposed here) With veterancy things become more difficult, sure, but overall IMO the Panzer IV is not so much a reason for the M36 to be so powerful as is the Panther, which the M4A3 is hopelessly inadequate against.

Ironically this proposal doesn't actually meet this requirement anyway as this new 76mm Sherman would do terribly versus the OKW Panzer IV or vet 2 Ostheer Panzer IV. The only major change is that in this world the USF roster has lost a major AI tool and generalist in the M4A3.

Or

Give them a Sherman Jumbo.

There's already a community made model for it.

Give 76mm sherman little buff will be good,other two is fine