Ostheer T4 Non-Combat Grenadier Buff Idea

I have several different ideas for Ostheer that I think address a lot of the concerns with the faction atm, principally T4 and the Ostheer infantry game.

While I lean a bit towards Imperial Dane's view on the HMG42 being the cornerstone of the Ostheer infantry setup, and also then the source of most of it's difficulties, I think buffing the HMG42 in a significant way is probably not an entirely realistic prospect (I would be interested in reducing the RA for the starter HMG42 crew though, from 1.25 to 1.15 for a start, maybe.)

With this in mind, and considering the current issues with T4 not being worth the price or what-have-you, and also considering the relative fragility of Grenadiers, which is still a topic of discussion even after the RD change, I have an idea which addressed both the T4 and Gren issue simultaneously.

It's simple, have acquiring T4 grant a global buff to Grenadier reinforcement time and cost as well as experience gain via a requirement action in the squad sbps. Given that Ostheer is supposedly a primarily late-game faction, this allows quicker replacement and veterancy gain by Grenadiers in the late game, allowing them to more quickly catch up with enemy infantry even if suffering wipes. At the same time, this isn't a major combat buff, and so should hopefully not be seen as a particularly dangerous balance direction, merely a way to keep Ostheer mainline infantry relevant.

For reinforce cost and time I was thinking a 10% reduction in both areas, bringing Grenadier reinforce cost from 30 to 27 and time from 6 to 5.4. For experience gain I was thinking 15-25%.

On this same vein I also believe the squad population cap (sbps, not individual pop) for the Grenadier squad should be reduced from 3 to 2, the same as most other mainline infantry squads. Seeing as how Grenadiers are primarily a form of support infantry, this helps them better fulfil this role by eating up slightly less popcap, particularly in the lategame. For reference, a Grenadier squad of 4 men would currently use up 7 popcap, and in this case would only use 6.

If these changes are not sufficient with regard primarily to infantry (T4 is somewhat secondary in this idea tbh) I think any further changes should come to how the veterancy is dealt out rather than a stock combat buff (or the reinforcement cost change being considered right now, tbh).


EDIT: I should also say that, as with other infantry units with ability recharge veterancies, like riflemen, I think the ability recharge bonus should apply to all or at least most abilities in the squad, including doctrinal ones (blinding grenade, rifle grenade, sprint, etc.)

I agree with OP perspective but i think OST is not late-game oriented (unless a doctrine is picked for that purpose) and its more like mid-game.

Early game depends heavily on player skill. Mid game is more an opportunity and roosteir unveil strategies but lategame is for the allied on a even match and probably to axis if allied got starved of resources/Vp enough

I agree with OP perspective but i think OST is not late-game oriented (unless a doctrine is picked for that purpose) and its more like mid-game.

Early game depends heavily on player skill. Mid game is more an opportunity and roosteir unveil strategies but lategame is for the allied on a even match and probably to axis if allied got starved of resources/Vp enough

Alright. What do you think of the idea, though?

+1

Alright. What do you think of the idea, though?

+1 to MG42 perspective, buffing its RA its not an ideal solution IMO.

+1 about the T4 being lackluster and it need some sort of global buff, wether it be a direct or an indirect one.
I came up with the idea of make all new infantry trained come with vet1 already. It could be a further tech only available in HPC. Random wipes can be replaced at the same price but with better performance. And the vet buff is hardly worth being rushed.

I dont really like to buff grens reinforce cost / train time / popcap, i simply dislike the disposable aspect it gives to them.

Ideas like this are what I would rather have then more tech restructuring for Ostheer. Stop rearranging and reducing Ost tech costs, and instead just give them bonuses like this to make their tech more worth it. Really good idea, I think it should require t4 building

Everyone's t4 should include something for infantry. OKWs essentially does since they get a whole new squad, Brits have all sorts of options in hammer/anvil, US gets great support unit in Major, Soviets now unlock 7 man upgrade

T4 should just make Grenadier/Pioneer/Osttruppen medkits free in my opinion. Nothing else is needed.

Free medkits or have T4 building grant or give the option to make pios 5 man.

+ 1 for free meed kit and faster vet

medic should be replaced by a better ability for grenadier.

With this in mind, and considering the current issues with T4 not being worth the price or what-have-you, and also considering the relative fragility of Grenadiers, which is still a topic of discussion even after the RD change, I have an idea which addressed both the T4 and Gren issue simultaneously.

It's simple, have acquiring T4 grant a global buff to Grenadier reinforcement time and cost as well as experience gain via a requirement action in the squad sbps. Given that Ostheer is supposedly a primarily late-game faction, this allows quicker replacement and veterancy gain by Grenadiers in the late game, allowing them to more quickly catch up with enemy infantry even if suffering wipes. At the same time, this isn't a major combat buff, and so should hopefully not be seen as a particularly dangerous balance direction, merely a way to keep Ostheer mainline infantry relevant.

For reinforce cost and time I was thinking a 10% reduction in both areas, bringing Grenadier reinforce cost from 30 to 27 and time from 6 to 5.4. For experience gain I was thinking 15-25%.

so your point is to make their performence better in the lategame is to reduce thier reinforcement time...

that will help a lot in the late game and will make OST so much viable ... i mean they can now be shreddet much more by allied inf.

now its not only cheaper to to lose inf fights but u can have that more often.

in other words " Hey Ost player ur mainline inf is so bad, in the late game u will have so much fuks ... better to get experience faster..."

Why not something like dps buffs or 5 Men or supression on third salvo on vet 3 ... ?

snip

Huh? What are you talking about? Grens aren’t shite.

Huh? What are you talking about? Grens aren’t shite.

ah ok then OST has no inf problem in the lategame ... well ok then change nothing.

all fine

ah ok then OST has no inf problem in the lategame ... well ok then change nothing.

all fine

No, they don't have any inf problem, because - and stay with me now - a 240mp unit with 60muni upgrade IS going to lose badly to 270mp unit with 90 muni upgrade and 40+ fuel side techs investment and 280mp unit with 120muni upgrade and at least 15 fuel side tech investment.

Just like soviets don't expect more then grens to go down to cons, neither should ost player expect grens to beat anything above cons without numerical superiority.

I have several different ideas for Ostheer that I think address a lot of the concerns with the faction atm, principally T4 and the Ostheer infantry game.

While I lean a bit towards Imperial Dane's view on the HMG42 being the cornerstone of the Ostheer infantry setup, and also then the source of most of it's difficulties, I think buffing the HMG42 in a significant way is probably not an entirely realistic prospect (I would be interested in reducing the RA for the starter HMG42 crew though, from 1.25 to 1.15 for a start, maybe.)

With this in mind, and considering the current issues with T4 not being worth the price or what-have-you, and also considering the relative fragility of Grenadiers, which is still a topic of discussion even after the RD change, I have an idea which addressed both the T4 and Gren issue simultaneously.

It's simple, have acquiring T4 grant a global buff to Grenadier reinforcement time and cost as well as experience gain via a requirement action in the squad sbps. Given that Ostheer is supposedly a primarily late-game faction, this allows quicker replacement and veterancy gain by Grenadiers in the late game, allowing them to more quickly catch up with enemy infantry even if suffering wipes. At the same time, this isn't a major combat buff, and so should hopefully not be seen as a particularly dangerous balance direction, merely a way to keep Ostheer mainline infantry relevant.

For reinforce cost and time I was thinking a 10% reduction in both areas, bringing Grenadier reinforce cost from 30 to 27 and time from 6 to 5.4. For experience gain I was thinking 15-25%.

On this same vein I also believe the squad population cap (sbps, not individual pop) for the Grenadier squad should be reduced from 3 to 2, the same as most other mainline infantry squads. Seeing as how Grenadiers are primarily a form of support infantry, this helps them better fulfil this role by eating up slightly less popcap, particularly in the lategame. For reference, a Grenadier squad of 4 men would currently use up 7 popcap, and in this case would only use 6.

If these changes are not sufficient with regard primarily to infantry (T4 is somewhat secondary in this idea tbh) I think any further changes should come to how the veterancy is dealt out rather than a stock combat buff (or the reinforcement cost change being considered right now, tbh).


EDIT: I should also say that, as with other infantry units with ability recharge veterancies, like riflemen, I think the ability recharge bonus should apply to all or at least most abilities in the squad, including doctrinal ones (blinding grenade, rifle grenade, sprint, etc.)

Nice idea but I don't think the developers will. They've limited themselves to making small changes so far. Another thing that OST needs is a rework of some commanders.

No, they don't have any inf problem, because - and stay with me now - a 240mp unit with 60muni upgrade IS going to lose badly to 270mp unit with 90 muni upgrade and 40+ fuel side techs investment and 280mp unit with 120muni upgrade and at least 15 fuel side tech investment.

Just like soviets don't expect more then grens to go down to cons, neither should ost player expect grens to beat anything above cons without numerical superiority.

but lmg gren at vet3 can beat 2x bar riflemen at vet 3.

No, they don't have any inf problem, because - and stay with me now - a 240mp unit with 60muni upgrade IS going to lose badly to 270mp unit with 90 muni upgrade and 40+ fuel side techs investment and 280mp unit with 120muni upgrade and at least 15 fuel side tech investment.

Just like soviets don't expect more then grens to go down to cons, neither should ost player expect grens to beat anything above cons without numerical superiority.

so we all agree that OST t4 is shit... so OST t4 is the Ost lategame. And here is the thing... the lategame AI unit the brumm is nerfed of the board.

OST needs any form of lategame inf to hold the line agaisnt allied inf pressure... ergo buff Grens in the lategame.

than make them cost up to 300 MP as long as they can fuckin fight in the lategame and not being trash when vetted and double MG untis running around.

I have no problem with paying 120 mun for double lmg grens...

and maybe consider that u cant just pick a doctrine and get a "free out of jail inf unit out of it".

The design of ost is to rely on support weapon play, this is fine till the mid game. After that the allied range firepower and supreme inf squats that go full rambo. As OST u go for Tanks P4 or Wind... but in the lategame they get shredd by 60TD and u have to fight with ur worse inf and support weapon disadvantge(against explosives). And than u should go for T4 ... but we all know that this is shit. u face problems especially in the AI department. Its getting only worse when scotts and heavy arty have with ur 4 men untis.


Long stoy short:

1. Fix Ost T4
2. nerf the allied 60TD Meta
3. make/scale grens better in the lategame

and pls nothing like 2mp reinforce cost reducton.

But hey lets do nothing and wait the next tournament, which will be like OKW vs USF,SU

medic should be replaced by a better ability for grenadier.

I disagree, because it gives gren some utility, when escorting HMGs they can provide some heal to it, useful for holding the line.

I disagree aswell on making heal free. Its not something you simply abuse. Veteran squad gives it for free because it is a payed upgrade that locks out the LMG42 (its iconic upgrade)

If grens should be buff anyway it should focus on their midgame potential, since they are not lategame oriented nor early game powerhouse.

What about letting pgrens fill more roles????

They fill AT role and AI role.
What more do you expect? Heavy tank role? Scout plane role?