Elite Panzerschreck

Not to be an a hole but: 1.167*1.2 = 1.4 or +16.7% and +20% is equal to +40%.
So your point is kinda falls apart here.

Fair catch. I didn't bother doing the math. Still don't like this idea much though.

SPshreck are situational, they weren't even wanted by Relic when they redo OKW. If I recall correctly they where given because the community asked for it. They aren't there to deal damage but to stop LV push if you can't afford a proper vehicle to do it.

I don't understand why you want to make them deal more damage since they already fulfill their intended "STOP AT GAP" role. Or you want to change their role but I don't see any reason why, if you want a more offensive AT solution, the Puma is there for you.

I mean, their role when you equip them with shreck is the same as Penal with PTRS. Should we increase PTRS penal because they have little use atm? Of course not. You get them if you fail early on and can't get a vehicle soon enough and really need something to keep your opponent own vehicle at distance. Nothing less and nothing more.

BTW, I can already foreseen the problem you'll create with the combo Luch + elite pshreck and potential faust or raketen close by.

Elite Zooks require Elite troops to handle them, someone said that we could give them to officers and for the same reason as above I'm not approving it. I don't want to see stock elite zook + any USF light vehicle every games. At the moment if there are any on the field it is because certain doctrines have been selected and that what make them balanced.

What do Relics intentions from whenever that have been reworked multiple times have to do with how we should balance currently underused units?
I disagree on the part that they fulfil their role properly. Against an Clowncar, M5 or AEC they can, but not against AI LVs. Sturms AI DPS drops off quite a bit so you can't let them run arouns the battlefield alone anymore because basically every other unit will win against them. Also they will lose to a normal LV because they can be pushed around and prevented from shooting. You can't do that to PTRS Penals, Riflemen or RE. Panzergrens have the advantage that their damage is so high that a slight screw up costs you your LV. Single Schrecks don't have high damage and have to do damage over time to be effective, yet all of them are 4 men squads and relatively squishy. So you always have to run around in squads of two (mostly speaking for Sturmpioniere here).
To your last two points:
Using combined arms is actually exactly what this game is about. So if the unit gets used like that it would be a huge plus for my idea.
Please tell me in which way at least Sturm troopers do not qualify as elite units in the sense of the game? But apart from that the argument is not very strong. Every unit should be balanced according to its power level and potential shock value. The single Schreck upgrade currently has mo shock value and mediocre at best power level. Quite contrary, the unit on its own becomes weak to both its counter (which is good) as well as the unit that it is supposed to counter. And constantly needing to blob 2-3 units together during the early-mid game transition is not beneficial to the flow of the game.

The single Schreck upgrade currently has mo shock value and mediocre at best power level.

And what don't you understand from it being as per design?

Single shreck SP was never wanted but given to please the crowd. Its role is -AT Stop Gap-, not to counter LVs and even less AI LVs. You don't upgrade them because you want it but because you have no other solution. People who upgrade them for any other reason are 1- experimenting 2- wrong.

Btw you also don't counter AI LVs with zooks, even elite one.

And what don't you understand from it being as per design?

Single shreck SP was never wanted but given to please the crowd. Its role is -AT Stop Gap-, not to counter LVs and even less AI LVs. You don't upgrade them because you want it but because you have no other solution. People who upgrade them for any other reason are 1- experimenting 2- wrong.

Btw you also don't counter AI LVs with zooks, even elite one.

But at least Sturmpioniere do not even fulfil their 'stop gap' function well.

And yes, you can counter a Luchs with bazookas. Just like you can counter it with PTRS Penals. Which works because they are 6 men and the Luchs can't close in to push them around. Unlike Schreck squads though.

But at least Sturmpioniere do not even fulfil their 'stop gap' function well.

And yes, you can counter a Luchs with bazookas. Just like you can counter it with PTRS Penals. Which works because they are 6 men and the Luchs can't close in to push them around. Unlike Schreck squads though.

it works becouse a) 2 bazookas have good dps vs light vehicles and b) ptrs units have some sort of snare (or button vehicle)

maybe single schreck upgrate should also come with some sort of snare, as an alternative solution to this problem

But at least Sturmpioniere do not even fulfil their 'stop gap' function well.

And yes, you can counter a Luchs with bazookas. Just like you can counter it with PTRS Penals. Which works because they are 6 men and the Luchs can't close in to push them around. Unlike Schreck squads though.

Hint for you, don't close the distance.

Hint for you, don't close the distance.

ffs, are you telling me right now, a sturmpioneer with shrek is equally as dangerous to an LV as much as penal/guard PTRS, rifelmen/rear echelons with bazookas or a sapper with piats??

Sturmpioneers having a single Panzershrek is not viable for two reasons.

1) You need the sweeper package for minesweeping and faster repairs. 300mp is too much to build a second Spio squad so you need a sweeper on the first one.

2) You can’t put away the Panzershrek like you can put away the sweeper, meaning you nerf the unit’s anti infantry capabilities significantly the rest of the game.

it works becouse a) 2 bazookas have good dps vs light vehicles and b) ptrs units have some sort of snare (or button vehicle)

maybe single schreck upgrate should also come with some sort of snare, as an alternative solution to this problem

I agree, but the point I wanted to make is that Guarda and Penals can sustain quite a bit of fire from the Luchs until it is heavily damaged. So it's usually not a good trade for the OKW player to go 1v1 vs such a squad. With 4 man squads you have a decent chance to get your models dropped too quivkly before your T70 (in that case) has to back off.

Hint for you, don't close the distance.

Because my Sturmpioniere can outrun a T70?

Because my Sturmpioniere can outrun a T70?

Because zook can outrun a Luch? Do you like so much running in circle behind your tail? Because that is what you are doing right now.

Because zook can outrun a Luch? Do you like so much running in circle behind your tail? Because that is what you are doing right now.

You can 2x equip zooks on multiple squads. Building 1 shreck on sturms is not comparable

Even if we just compared AT engineers. Royal engineers and rear echelon can double equip piats/zooks AND still get a minesweeper. Royals will also still have a snare

Because zook can outrun a Luch? Do you like so much running in circle behind your tail? Because that is what you are doing right now.

Honestly I'm not sure what you're arguing about right now.
But if you say that Bazookas are usually on Riflemen which often have a snare by the time the Luchs comes out (plus you can put two on them for a damage of 160) is the same as Panzerschrecks on Sturmpioniere which never get a snare, then a discussion won't help much.

Honestly I'm not sure what you're arguing about right now.
But if you say that Bazookas are usually on Riflemen which often have a snare by the time the Luchs comes out (plus you can put two on them for a damage of 160) is the same as Panzerschrecks on Sturmpioniere which never get a snare, then a discussion won't help much.

No, you're inventing the argumentation here. Zook can't outrun LVs as much as Shreck. The rest is just your babling for the sake of it.
Have other factions easier way with handled AT, that's call asymmetrical design, OKW has its own strength around it.

If we go back to the aim of your topic, SP doesn't need Elite shreck because first of all, the faction isn't designed around them having performing handle AT except from doctrines.

No, you're inventing the argumentation here. Zook can't outrun LVs as much as Shreck. The rest is just your babling for the sake of it.

That was your argument only, mate. I did not bring up any of it by myself.

Have other factions easier way with handled AT, that's call asymmetrical design, OKW has its own strength around it.

The upgrade is currently in the game. At the moment we could either delete it or make it usable. I say make it usable. OKW can work without the upgrade, but as a tendency this would push you into T2 for the possibility to build a Puma if necessary. A functioning light Schreck squad could help T1 builds instead so that you have an AT option outside of the ATG that could at least deter a LV.

If we go back to the aim of your topic, SP doesn't need Elite shreck because first of all, the faction isn't designed around them having performing handle AT except from doctrines.

That is the case for every doctrinal unit. No faction is designed around or relies on a doctrinal unit to be viable. But at least we can agree on that. That does not add anything to the topic though.

That was your argument only, mate. I did not bring up any of it by myself.


The upgrade is currently in the game. At the moment we could either delete it or make it usable. I say make it usable. OKW can work without the upgrade, but as a tendency this would push you into T2 for the possibility to build a Puma if necessary. A functioning light Schreck squad could help T1 builds instead so that you have an AT option outside of the ATG that could at least deter a LV.


That is the case for every doctrinal unit. No faction is designed around or relies on a doctrinal unit to be viable. But at least we can agree on that. That does not add anything to the topic though.

Then after L2P, L2R? Hope you make more effort as Moderator than poster. I said "don't close the distance" with your LV if you're afraid of any kind of handle AT because AI LVs have more range. That goes the same way for everyone, every faction. You see LVs aren't counter by zook, ptrs, piat or shreck but those punish mistakes and that is how the balance works, and pretty well here.

For the rest, we simply disagree on how to balance factions. I stop here.

Let me just remind you how M20 crew had its single bazook removed because it could be used to help defend itself from 222, while a single Schreck on another 4-men squad is supposedly helpless and needs buffs.

Single Schrecks are hardly ever bought because there are other good ways to spend your MU. It competes with mines, weapon upgrades and (in case of SP) with sweepers.

Then after L2P, L2R? Hope you make more effort as Moderator than poster. I said "don't close the distance" with your LV if you're afraid of any kind of handle AT because AI LVs have more range. That goes the same way for everyone, every faction. You see LVs aren't counter by zook, ptrs, piat or shreck but those punish mistakes and that is how the balance works, and pretty well here.

For the rest, we simply disagree on how to balance factions. I stop here.

That was a discussion point you completely made up.
Quick recap of the discussion on that regard:

Me: My Schreck squad can get pushed around by a T70 because they can not snare nor do enough damage.
You: Then don't close in with your LV.

Not too sure what's going on here.

Anyways:
Range difference between handheld AT and Luchs/T70 and the like is if I recall correctly 5 meters. That is often what your LV needs to stop, so it puts heavier micro tax on your unit to pull it back and constantly keep driving backwards in that 5 m zone.
Those units make a LV often ineffective and hard to use in the area around them while winning in a direct fight. If PTRS don't counter LVs, why do people usually get them if a Luchs, Puma or 222 come out? Because even a slight mis-micro from your opponent will send the damaged LV back to base and make it cost ineffective. That's a counter.


PS:
I'm not going to comment anything on your insults, but you should let go of these.

Allow Sturms to upgrade a second Schreck if Battlegroup is made, but not with Mechanized. Might break up OKW's meta a bit (and/or turn team games into a Schreck Sturm spam hellhole).

It hurts to read so much double standards for allied handheld AT vs axis shrek. FFS people just disagree kindly and stop disrupting those who are really putting an effort to keep the game balanced and diverse. Not every axis thread is a gathering of wheraboos. Jeez

everyone laugh about stpios with schreck..no fear is needed.

but what u fear is a fu**** brit pio with double piats and snare.