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Panzerfüssiliers balance

27 Jan 2020, 12:48 PM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 11:21 AMVipper

When did that happen?

Paying 80 mu for 2 g43 would make it one of the worse upgrade in game...

And as I have pointed out usage of PF in the last tournament indicates that PF are UP in their role as alternative mainline.

But this thread is about their snare and not their overall balance.


Panzerfüssiliers UP now? I have heard it all on COH2.org.

I wonder what Vipper's opinion was if Panzerfüssiliers were an Allied unit.

So just to summarize: a unit that has 6 man, 3 G43s, longest snare in coh2, grenade without call out, flare, sprint, cheap reinforce cost and overall much stronger combat performance than Volks are considered UP.

Vipper time and time argues that Penals are OP but at the same time thinks Panzerfüssiliers, which are objectively just better, are UP. This must be the absolute definition of ridiculous double standards.


Copied from another thread since that one was about the Panzerfüssilier's snare.

First of all if you are going to respond to me read what I have written.

Second if in your opinion PF, are so good, in their role as alternative mainline pls explain why, in your opinion, so few where used in the last tournament.

Finnaly you are going tp compare Penals and g43 PF pls at least try avoid having double standards and try to take into account cost, timing and commander ability slot.
27 Jan 2020, 13:06 PM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Because in 1v1 early infantry engagements matter a lot more than any other game mode and because Penal M3 builds weren't used much.

In 2v2 Füssiliers blobs are absolute meta because scalability >>> first 10 minutes of the game.
27 Jan 2020, 13:07 PM
#3
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

This sounds like a PM-thread. I think PFs are fine, with just their moving DPS a bit too high making them braindead run&gun squad efficient at chasing and wiping.
27 Jan 2020, 13:08 PM
#4
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

The issue is chasedown wipes, not DPS.
27 Jan 2020, 13:09 PM
#5
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

And btw what I want is the reduction of the snare range and not overall Panzerfüssilier nerfs. Not sure why this thread was opened in the first place.
27 Jan 2020, 13:35 PM
#6
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 731

I'd like to see Fusiller default weapon be mp40,now they very like Volks……
27 Jan 2020, 13:57 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

The issue is chasedown wipes, not DPS.

Numbers do not seem to support you claim
Moving DPS 20/35
Penals
10.5/6.3
PF
11.6/7.6

110%/120% more for 80 munition does not seem a good investment. Again 2 G43 for 80 munition would make the upgrade and unit not worth it.
27 Jan 2020, 13:58 PM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

And btw what I want is the reduction of the snare range and not overall Panzerfüssilier nerfs. Not sure why this thread was opened in the first place.

1) Others claimed that PF should lose one G43
2) You claimed that PF are currently at least in a good spot
27 Jan 2020, 14:03 PM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Because in 1v1 early infantry engagements matter a lot more than any other game mode and because Penal M3 builds weren't used much.

And that proves that they are NOT good in their role a alternative mainline infantry.


In 2v2 Füssiliers blobs are absolute meta because scalability >>> first 10 minutes of the game.

Even if that is true being used in a certain mode does not mean that the is good int role as alternative mainline infatry. Do you claimed that they are used more than the Penal in 2vs2? (especially before the OP 7 men conscript upgrade)

The unit could easily be redesigned to be cheaper and more about utility and less about damage.
27 Jan 2020, 14:20 PM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 14:03 PMVipper
Even if that is true being used in a certain mode does not mean that the is good int role as alternative mainline infatry


The fact that the new Panzerfusiliers are used extensively in 3/4 modes and less so in 1/4 modes seems to disprove your point. They are very popular in 3v3s and 4v4s too.
27 Jan 2020, 14:23 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



The fact that the new Panzerfusiliers are used extensively in 3/4 modes and less so in 1/4 modes seems to disprove your point. They are very popular in 3v3s and 4v4s too.

1) Do you have stats about that? How many are built and how many VG are built?
2) Are they used more or less than Penals?
27 Jan 2020, 14:24 PM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 14:23 PMVipper

2) Are they used more than Penals?

Would you like an in-depth explanation on why a doctrinal unit that isn't in 100% of doctrines might be used less frequently then stock unit, but still be used frequently?
27 Jan 2020, 14:27 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 14:24 PMKatitof

Would you like an in-depth explanation on why a doctrinal unit that isn't in 100% of doctrines might be used less frequently then stock unit, but still be used frequently?

Do I have to explain that when one makes such a comparison of ratios, one compares only when the doctrinal units is available?

Do ?I have to explain that PF are currently available to 2 very popular doctrines?

Are you ever going to quite your little campaign of trying to prove my every post wrong?
27 Jan 2020, 14:31 PM
#14
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 14:23 PMVipper
1) Do you have stats about that? How many are built and how many VG are built?
?


No stats, but in 2v2s, 3v3s and occasionally 4v4s I always see them used at least every other game. Sometimes every game, depending on how many OKW players there are.

I don't see what the popularity of Penals has to do with Panzerfusiliers. And neither does it matter how many Panzerfusiliers are used compared to Volksgrenadiers, because it was exactly the point of their new design that they should supplement Volksgrenadiers rather than replace them, which is why they lack some crucial utility (anti garrison, salvage, sandbags, stock firepower) but bring unique utility themselves (early snare, recon, AT upgrade, scalability).
27 Jan 2020, 14:34 PM
#15
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

from all commander inf sqaud...panzerf are not in the top class...they are in mid class since there are shocks, rangers, commandos etc etc
27 Jan 2020, 14:39 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

from all commander inf sqaud...panzerf are not in the top class...they are in mid class since there are shocks, rangers, commandos etc etc

Yes sherlock, a 0CP general mainline infantry is not going to perform as good as 2cp+ much more expensive specialist squads.
27 Jan 2020, 15:08 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



No stats, but in 2v2s, 3v3s and occasionally 4v4s I always see them used at least every other game. Sometimes every game, depending on how many OKW players there are.

I do to and I used them but they are used with VG and not instead.


I don't see what the popularity of Penals has to do with Panzerfusiliers.
It has allot to do with it because Penal is one of the few units that works as "alternative mainline infatry" to conscripts.



And neither does it matter how many Panzerfusiliers are used compared to Volksgrenadiers, because it was exactly the point of their new design that they should supplement Volksgrenadiers rather than replace them, which is why they lack some crucial utility (anti garrison, salvage, sandbags, stock firepower) but bring unique utility themselves (early snare, recon, AT upgrade, scalability).

Again it does because the hole point of the redesign was to become a "replacement" of VG and not a "supplement".

As a supplement they could stay at CP2 and not become build-able from HQ or they could become cheaper and carrying less of punch in order to be useful because for utility and not DPS...
27 Jan 2020, 15:18 PM
#18
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 13:57 PMVipper

Numbers do not seem to support you claim
Moving DPS 20/35
Penals
10.5/6.3
PF
11.6/7.6

110%/120% more for 80 munition does not seem a good investment. Again 2 G43 for 80 munition would make the upgrade and unit not worth it.

It's 3 G43s not 2. Also PFs carry majority of their moving DPS on just these 3 G43 models so their DPS drops less with the number of models in the squad going down. For example if Penals lose 3 models, they lose 50% DPS which is not true for PFs.
27 Jan 2020, 15:26 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


It's 3 G43s not 2. Also PFs carry majority of their moving DPS on just these 3 G43 models so their DPS drops less with the number of models in the squad going down. For example if Penals lose 3 models, they lose 50% DPS which is not true for PFs.

PLS read more carefully.
I have done the calculations with 3 G43 and replied to a suggestion to lower to 2...

DPS drop off is partially true (since Penal lose less DPS after vet 1), and imo large squad should not have concentrated DPS and that includes more allied units.

Point remains that with current stats/cost PF with 2 g43 would be UP.
27 Jan 2020, 15:30 PM
#20
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 15:08 PMVipper
Again it does because the hole point of the redesign was to become a "replacement" of VG and not a "supplement".


?? I'm pretty sure I know my own design. They were never meant to replace Volks, as we wanted specifically to avoid a Conscripts/Penals situation where one replaces the other entirely.

They were always intended to most commonly serve alongside Volks and not entirely replace them. It's literally right there in the end of the introduction of their changes in the patchnotes:
OKW - Grand Offensive

Panzerfusilliers
The way Panzerfusiliers are deployed has been changed…
[…]
This should make for interesting choices and compositions.
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