Why are OST and OKW always rolling out their tanks first?

It's pretty rare to see it the other way around even looking at higher level play.

I think this is because of the huge fuel costs of all the Allied side techs especially for the Western Allies. You're lucky if you can roll out a Sherman before a P4J or a Stug and a half.

Everything for the Allies costs fuel. 15 fuel for grenades, 15 fuel for Weapon racks, 10 fuel for ambulance, 35 fuel for officer 20 fuel for the Vehicle unlock and 120 for Major. So before you can even buy a tank thats 205 fuel and that's without buying a light vehicle just getting the bare essentials as the game drags on.

UKF is what? 35 for Bolster, 10 for grenades, 15 for weapon racks, 18 for PCP and 115 for CCP?

Wrong, allied use to get light vehicles to dominate early reliably. Therefore invest fuel on units rather tech and also delay their mediums.

Very rare to see this odd argument from a single allied faction hero

I'd post one of the many tech cost calculation threads but I can't seem to find them. I hope someone else does.

Wrong, allied use to get light vehicles to dominate early reliably

Yeah I agree this is the main reason, and that's a choice the player makes, not a balance issue

Also I feel like Ost is the only one getting p4 "early", OKWs p4 is 30-50 fu more expensive than allied stock mediums, and mechanized has some expensive light vehicles (compared to Ost anyway)

It's pretty rare to see it the other way around even looking at higher level play.

I think this is because of the huge fuel costs of all the Allied side techs especially for the Western Allies. You're lucky if you can roll out a Sherman before a P4J or a Stug and a half.

Everything for the Allies costs fuel. 15 fuel for grenades, 15 fuel for Weapon racks, 10 fuel for ambulance, 35 fuel for officer 20 fuel for the Vehicle unlock and 120 for Major. So before you can even buy a tank thats 205 fuel and that's without buying a light vehicle just getting the bare essentials as the game drags on.

UKF is what? 35 for Bolster, 10 for grenades, 15 for weapon racks, 18 for PCP and 115 for CCP?

You see axis roll out tanks earlier cus they have to. All allied factions have faster medium timings. But allied LV's are very good at giving control. That investment alone pushes back mediums. It's not the side tech it's the LV's. The thing is rushing for a medium is not great as allies unless you are so far ahead that it does not matter.

Alright
- - - - -
///Soviet///
Flamenade: 10fuel
ATnade: 15fuel

Tier3 for Light tanks: 90fuel
Tier4 for Medium tanks: 90fuel

=> Soviet requires 2 upgrades 35fuel + Tier1/2 20fuel + Tier3 90fuel = 145fuel for tech. Which they need 215fuel to get their 1st Light tank.
=> With Tier4 90fuel. They need 325fuel to get their 1st T34.
- - - - -
///USF///
Grenade: 15fuel
Weapon: 15fuel

Lieu: 35fuel
Cap: 35fuel
+Mechanized: 20fuel

Major: 120fuel

=> USF need 70fuel to unlock both ATgun & MG, or 115fuel to get their first Light tanks without grenade + weapon (145fuel with grenade + weapon)
=> USF need 300fuel to get the first Sherman without grenade + weapon (330fuel with grenade + weapon)

Except USF is UNABLE to play in mid game without Light, because a free Riflemen squad and the lack of weapon cant help them in mid game. Which USF roughly need 370-400fuel to get their first Sherman.
- - - - -
///Brit///
I dont play much, eventhough Brit have alot of side tech, but they can skip Bofor/AEC upgrade and go straight to Medium, which is great in 4v4 game since Soviet/USF cover their early/mid game
- - - - -
///Wehr///
Tier1 10fuel
>>Phase1 40fuel
Tier2 20fuel
>>Phase2 90fuel
Tier3 25fuel

=>It seems like Wehr needs 305fuel to get their first Pz4. Though its possible for them to skip Tier2 because they have PzGren for AT force in Tier1 after Phase1. Its possible for Wehr to get Pz4 with 285fuel. WITH LMG42, ATnade, Shreck unlocked
- - - - -
///OKW/// (this one unfair tech faction)
Battlegroup 40fuel
Mechanize 60fuel
PzHQ 135fuel

=> Okw requires 130fuel to get their first Light. With Stg44, Shreck, Flamenade, ATnade, MGs unlocked.
=> Okw requires 335fuel to get their first Pz4. With Stg44, Shreck, Flamenade, ATnade, MGs unlocked.

The unfair about this faction?
- Wehr requires another 50fuel to get Panther, Okw doesnt
- Wehr 60fuel to unlock 222, Okw unlock Luch
- Another 50fuel to back tech unlock King, Wehr has Panther as their best
- What 40fuel can give to Okw? FlakHT, InfraredHT, supportgun, MG, STG, Shreck, Flamenade,ATnade. What 55fuel can give to USF? A free Riflemen, ATgun (that lack MG), FlakHT, supportgun.

its completely dependent on map control and your fuel investments that decide which gets vehicles first, german that took double 222 is likely to not get tank as fast as usf guy who doesnt get light vehicle at all.

Fuel tech cost here:



Side notes:
- UKF T3 = hammer/anvil
- side tech = weapon/grenade unlocks, OKW T2 repair pioneers
- "full tech" = all tech structures up (usually not the case for SOV, OKW and USF) + side techs (usually no the case for any faction)
- "medium rush" has always chosen the cheapest way to a medium (cheapest tech structure, e.g. OKW T1, and no side tech or medics)
- OKW and OST values: include both the battle phase + building / truck + building cost


There were also previous discussions here:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/96750/redirect-thread-faction-teching-and-timing

and here:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/96422/panzerfusiliers-need-adjustments/page/9



And one last note: The best number we want to discuss about is probably the "FU gain for medium tech" and then add some side tech cost for UKF, maybe USF and also maybe 20 FU for OKW because T1 is not meta.

Now, comparisons:

All factions pay rougly the same amount for getting tech for mediums up. UKF pays the least but usually has to side tech to bolster and/or weapon racks to make it through. OKW pays the most. Another side of the medal is MP cost though, and my calcs on that one show that OKW has a huge advantage here until the early-mid game. This results from unlocks like StGs, snares and nades for which they basically pay no MP and that point in the game. This allows them to invest more into infantry and map control and get some of the fuel disadvantage back, depending on player skill. We can conclude that all factions get their medium tech probably within 30 sec to one min in an even game.

After that players need to wait for the FU for their medium tank. If we assume that mediums are at the moment well balances against one another, then there is no problem. OKW has to wait the longest, but gets the best tank (at least for tank on tank warfare), SOV the shortest but get the worst.

All factions pay roughly the same for full tech, while the non vanilla factions pay the most. However, these factions rarely get full tech (all structures plus all side techs) because it rarely makes sense.

The thing is, with 30fuel combined, Soviet has Penal, Sniper and full weaponteam set. With clown car can be a good tool to carry Engineer around to lay mines.

For USF, double Lieu Cap tech 70fuel is just impossible to play since they lack of various unit (as Rear, RM and full set of weaponteam. Lieu Cap dont have unique battle abilities so cant count them as different units). USF HAS TO use Light in mid game.
- - -
I do wish Medium tech cost increased to extend Light play time, so it may force players to use Light, like USF players.

Okw, with 40fuel to unlock BattleGroup tech. You know what they have. Sturm + Shreck, Volk + Stg + flamenade + ATnade, ATgun, MG34 Kubel, Supportgun, FlakHT, InfraredHT. Okw can skip Light to rush Medium.

The thing is, with 30fuel combined, Soviet has Penal, Sniper and full weaponteam set. With clown car can be a good tool to carry Engineer around to lay mines.

For USF, double Lieu Cap tech 70fuel is just impossible to play since they lack of various unit (as Rear, RM and full set of weaponteam. Lieu Cap dont have unique battle abilities so cant count them as different units). USF HAS TO use Light in mid game.

I'm not sure which mode and ladder position you talk about, but Clown cars are usually used to chase retreating squads and flank MGs with Penals or flame pioneers in them. Also you should not neglect that SOV would pay 320 MP if they go for T1 and T2 and get nothing out of it. Cap/Lieu play is possible as USF although not meta (at least not to my knowledge). Also they pay 400 MP, but at least get two squads out of it AND tech up. You would need to invest 50 MP/20 FU later on anyway, so your actual price increase is 150 MP and 15 FU for a new infantry squad. Obviously all of this neglects unit accessability.

I do wish Medium tech cost increased to extend Light play time, so it may force players to use Light, like USF players.

While I personally would support making CoH2 a bit slower than it currently is, extending the LV phase will mostly hurt OST and to a lesser extend UKF since they don't not really have that useful LVs while buffung OKW and SOV with exceptional LVs.

Okw, with 40fuel to unlock BattleGroup tech. You know what they have. Sturm + Shreck, Volk + Stg + flamenade + ATnade, ATgun, MG34 Kubel, Supportgun, FlakHT, InfraredHT. Okw can skip Light to rush Medium.

Who are you comparing to?
Also you should consider that battlegroup locks them basically out of LVs which will hurt you a lot if your opponent goes for M20 or T70. But yes, OKWs design is to be stronger in the early game than most factions. But every faction can skip LVs to rush a medium. As I posted, OKW is not faster than any other faction. Actually they need to get more fuel and have to compensate with a good early game.

They don't codguy, the faster with skips is ukf

They don't codguy, the faster with skips is ukf

That giant flak HT always goes up around the 8 minute mark for OKW way before you get a Major. UKF is a joke, I don't know how anyone survives long enough to get Compay CP in the first place.

Replay?

That giant flak HT always goes up around the 8 minute mark for OKW way before you get a Major. UKF is a joke, I don't know how anyone survives long enough to get Compay CP in the first place.

Maybe try denying the enemy the fuel or even capping your own? Idk what to tell ya.

That giant flak HT always goes up around the 8 minute mark for OKW way before you get a Major. UKF is a joke, I don't know how anyone survives long enough to get Compay CP in the first place.

how ? If u count build time it can't be 8 min

how ? If u count build time it can't be 8 min

I've done it myself. It's because you don't have to pay fuel for anything except teching. You don't really need the medic or mechanic side techs because you can repair and heal without them they're just an added bonus. It's also because they seperated the teching on the flak HT

But build time alone for tech is like 5 min add any unit that u Need to build instars if truck and wait for fuel , it's not feasible in 1vs1

Who are you comparing to?

Compare to USF.
For tank rushing.
Okw has: Volk stg +flame +ATnade, Sturm shreck, ATgun, MG, Kubel, Supportgun (not count InfraredHT & FlakHT because fuel consume)
USF has: RM, Rear, Cap, ATgun, supportgun

There is no way USF can fight or even hold the ground without using Light. Okw can skip it.

I've done it myself. It's because you don't have to pay fuel for anything except teching. You don't really need the medic or mechanic side techs because you can repair and heal without them they're just an added bonus. It's also because they seperated the teching on the flak HT

With an average fuel income of 26 per minute(about half the map), it will take a player roughly 7 minutes to save the required fuel to be able to rush out a Flak HQ and upgrade it. This again assumes the okw player doesnt get medics or a light vehicle. And this is not counting build time.

However, that is not how matches get played out. You will not reach that optimum income until around 2 mins in due to cap time, pushing the rush time to about 9 mins and it also doesnt account for territory being cut and resources being denied.

If your opponents are consistently able to get an upgraded flak HQ against you at 8 minutes, then you are getting outplayed. Severely. Period.

Compare to USF.
For tank rushing.
Okw has: Volk stg +flame +ATnade, Sturm shreck, ATgun, MG, Kubel, Supportgun (not count InfraredHT & FlakHT because fuel consume)
USF has: RM, Rear, Cap, ATgun, supportgun

There is no way USF can fight or even hold the ground without using Light. Okw can skip it.

I'm not too sure what you're on about. According to your post actually USF would be worse off if they'd build a LV due to the availability of AT options from OKW.

Also I am not sure why you argue that USF needs a LV because OKW can have more units after 40 FU. LV don't come out until the 100 FU mark, so you had to survive to that point anyway, even temporarily with lower unit variety. But at 100 FU USF already has their officer upgrade as well. On the other hand, if USF does not build a LV, there is no use for Schrecks or an ATG, which basically leaves the OKW advantage at potential StGs, Sturmpioneers that get significantly worse the more units are on the field and the Kübelwagen. I've also already shown that the total FU cost is not lower for OKW.

So the only point that I can make out from your post is that USF is somehow forced into weapon racks, which indeed makes things easier and might be needed if you don't get a LV. But that is another topic and at the moment USF is doing actually a little too well it seems