The Great OKW commander balancing

Still out ranges the 85 mark target or not. Stay out of range and you won't have a problem AND they wasted the munitions. They are more than making up the cost difference by having to use a specific commander and couple in munitions to have a chance.

Jackson I'll give you

Firefly... Yea.. It's nearly as expensive, far less mobile AND you are tacking on the tonne of extra munitions including a skill shot? Hit the firefly anywhere than from dead head on and it's toast.

E8 still has less range, pen and health. If it can play to its cherry picked scenario why can't the panther?

85 can attack first, so no range advantage and 85 wins. It’s also a 1v1 so not sure why Panther range matters since nobody spots for it.

FF can win easily if both tulips land.

E8 has better moving accuracy, so can win a moving fight.

Doesn’t sound like the Panther butchers lower cost vehicles. Perhaps, I dunno, I was correct?

One can do that with cheaper JP.

Panther is there to counter super heavies. C. Panther is simply way too expensive since it cost around the same as Command Tiger comes at similar CP and bring allot less to the table.

This is getting pretty annoying. I made a serious effort to very clearly state what I meant so that there would be no misunderstanding.

The panther HUNTS and closes out kills on mediums. It chases them down and destroys them. It dives onto mediums and drives after them until they are dead. That is what the panther does, and that is the role that the panther performs best in. This is not what the jagdpanzer does. If anything about this is unclear, I would appreciate it if you explained what the issue is instead of making a post that misunderstands what I have said.

85 can attack first, so no range advantage and 85 wins. It’s also a 1v1 so not sure why Panther range matters since nobody spots for it.

Does it really count as a 1v1 if the soviet player is using mark target? Feel like a 1v1 should always mean with nothing else at all

I know the cost difference still favors the soviet player in the scenario, but Imo the Jackson matchup is the only one of the 4 you listed that really needs attention

Firefly+tulips can punch above its cost for sure. But I think puma can do the same with vet 1 ability, JP4 and P4 can do it with heat rounds

I also generally feel that most "1v1" scenarios with tanks dont mean too much. They don't occur often, and just 1 squad w/ a snare can change so much for either player

Double stugs with poor pen and lower range is not efficient in dealing with heavies imo. 2 stugs is 180 fuel. A bit expensive to take the chance! Its TWP ability, worthless, and dont aid too.

Support your allies heavy with a ATg, and Stugs are zoned out.

Sorry, I dont really see your point. Heavies are 20+ pop cap each. Allied TDs are 14+ each. Double AT gun and double stug fall in a similar ball park. Heavies and their counters are pop cap heavy, yes.

isn't the volume approach also suited for countering allied infantry. Don't you need more infantry to counter allied infantry. Won't you a bit constricted in the pop cap department.

Does it really count as a 1v1 if the soviet player is using mark target? Feel like a 1v1 should always mean with nothing else at all

I know the cost difference still favors the soviet player in the scenario, but Imo the Jackson matchup is the only one of the 4 you listed that really needs attention

Firefly+tulips can punch above its cost for sure. But I think puma can do the same with vet 1 ability, JP4 and P4 can do it with heat rounds

I also generally feel that most "1v1" scenarios with tanks dont mean too much. They don't occur often, and just 1 squad w/ a snare can change so much for either player

I’m just giving real game situations where the Panther doesn’t butcher lower cost tanks like Lago stated but outright loses to them.

I’m just giving real game situations where the Panther doesn’t butcher lower cost tanks like Lago stated but outright loses to them.

Actually, the only way the panther loses to the T-34/85 with mark target like that head-on is if for some reason your panther has its ass facing forward, I don't recall it having a 100% chance to pen the panther, I'm sure panther has better accuarcy, and they have a roughly equal RoF. In conclusion, barring some insane RNG (like tightrope's KV1 hulldown test), there's no way the T-34/85 will win in that engagement, especially if you actually keep the panther stationary to hit its shots while the T-34/85 is forced to close in and risk missing.

small edit: I forgot that T-34/85 has slightly more health, which evens the odds a bit, I still think Panther will win in most cases.

How does Panther do against:

T34/85 with mark target

It wins, because 100% chance to pen is better then 50% chance to pen.

Jackson on the move

Well enough to beat it if it can't use range advantage, because for it to use its range, you'd have to use combined arms to spot.

Firefly with tulips

Its not even a contest if FF doesn't get the jump on it and perfectly lands both tulips from outside of its range, but that's combined arms against 1 unit since someone needs to spot somehow.

Edit: Also Easy 8 on the move

Beats it in a similar way as 34/85.

I’m just giving real game situations where the Panther doesn’t butcher lower cost tanks like Lago stated but outright loses to them.

snip

All right, a real question now (not trolling or anything here) Is stop-commanding a tank before it shoots really that rare/difficult? I'm asking because the whole "accuracy one the move" gets thrown around a lot, like who cares? just tap the brakes before the shot.

All right, a real question now (not trolling or anything here) Is stop-commanding a tank before it shoots really that rare/difficult? I'm asking because the whole "accuracy one the move" gets thrown around a lot, like who cares? just tap the brakes before the shot.

There are situations where you need to chase with the Panther, so moving accuracy can play a role vs usf which can afford to keep moving with 0.75 modifier.

All right, a real question now (not trolling or anything here) Is stop-commanding a tank before it shoots really that rare/difficult? I'm asking because the whole "accuracy one the move" gets thrown around a lot, like who cares? just tap the brakes before the shot.

If you have Korean-like micro-skills and sense of timing - yes, it's possible. It was video from one guy, that showed in cheat-mode circling t-70 around gren squad with "stop-move" - result great, but to implement this in real game...Only if CoH2 will be like SC2 with big prize pools we will see players who will micro like that.

85 can attack first, so no range advantage and 85 wins. It’s also a 1v1 so not sure why Panther range matters since nobody spots for it.

Counting from the first shot, at medium (20) range:
- Panther vs T-35-85 TTK: ~26,6s
- T-34-85 vs Panther TTK: ~51,2s
- T-34-85 (Mark Vehicle) vs Panther TTK: ~38,4s
(disregarding accuracy because scatter shots are too unpredictable to quantify)


And this is disregarding:
- Panther range advantage;
- Panther accuracy advantage;
- Panther vet 1 Blitzkrieg (-25% RA, +15% speed, +30% accel/decel) and Combat Blitz (+20% accuracy and -25% RA on the move, +25% rate of fire, +20% speed);
- Panther vet 2 armor bonus.


There is no scenario, except for the Panther showing its rear armor during the entire engagement or the absolute worst RNG, in which a Panther will lose to a T-34-85.

Jett is right, Cmd Panther exceled at dropping a mark target on an enemy medium and then diving it to quickly get the kill.

Command Panther's Concentrated Fire doesn't actually do anything against 640hp and 800hp mediums because it lasts only 20 seconds, which isn't enough to lower the shots to kill (STK). 20s is good for 2 shots (400dmg), 3 (600dmg) if timed absolutely perfectly. That means (800-400=)400hp or (800-600=)200hp is left so the 5 STK doesn't change. 640/160 = 640/200 at 4 STK.

It only works against the EZ8/SU-76/M10, when there are multiple other AT sources firing simultaneously or if the target was already damaged by other non-160dmg AT sources (Pshrecks, mines, snares, Puma).

All right, a real question now (not trolling or anything here) Is stop-commanding a tank before it shoots really that rare/difficult? I'm asking because the whole "accuracy one the move" gets thrown around a lot, like who cares? just tap the brakes before the shot.

Its extremely easy manouver, which I can pull pretty much all the time I need and I'm hardly a top player with superior micro and awareness.

Basically, only people who can't pull it are the ones unaware of it or too lazy to actually do it.
However its also pretty surprising how a lot of top players just forego using it, but that might be a result of "micro tax" on them as they micro more units at the time then average players, still, average players should reliably pull it off.

I'm not talking about shoulds. I'm talking about does.

The current Panther butchers every unsupported vehicle up to its price point but fares no better than a StuG pair (and apparently Pumas) against heavy armour.

I have made a very simple point:
C.Panhter performance vs Super heavies is not as cost efficient as the C.Tigers although it has similar cost and CP thus it is UP.

Vs mediums it probably up also compared to the Tiger.

The same probably applies to Croc.

The Ostheer panther probably also is UP compared to Tiger for the same reason.

Now I am not sure what is the point you are tying to make but describing the Panther as "butchering" mediums seem to me as misleading. 2 Stug or 3 Pumas probably "butcher" medium allot faster than a Panther. If Panther has an advantage over this vehicles it is that it can get the kill with loses....

Panther is actually not a cost efficient counter to mediums due to its cost....

No one is being toxic and I didnt say you came up with it. You're just putting way too much of an emphasis on the importance of the word, when one strategy is just a better version of the other

Skipping over medium tanks entirely requires some stalling imo

Ok this is probably the last time I going to post about this.

There is one strategy called "stalling for heavies" and the is another strategy called "heavy meta".

They are completely different since the first was relying on on stockpiling resources instead of investing them on tech, while the second one tech as normal.

The first one is no longer viable since Super heavies require tech...

The difference in their names includes the word "stalling", so it has emphasis to avoid confusion.

If you want to use the term "stalling" to describe the second strategy go ahead I don't really care but do not be surprised if people get confused.

All right, a real question now (not trolling or anything here) Is stop-commanding a tank before it shoots really that rare/difficult? I'm asking because the whole "accuracy one the move" gets thrown around a lot, like who cares? just tap the brakes before the shot.

When you stop your vehicle has to accelerate again to reach top so if one is chasing one might not be able to keep up if one stops for every shot.

This is getting pretty annoying. I made a serious effort to very clearly state what I meant so that there would be no misunderstanding.

The panther HUNTS and closes out kills on mediums. It chases them down and destroys them. It dives onto mediums and drives after them until they are dead. That is what the panther does, and that is the role that the panther performs best in. This is not what the jagdpanzer does. If anything about this is unclear, I would appreciate it if you explained what the issue is instead of making a post that misunderstands what I have said.

There is a difference between what a unit can do and what its role is.

Panther can be used as you described but one is risking a more expensive unit to kill a less expansive one. If that is its role of Panther it greatly over priced and thus not cost efficient at it.

According to Relic:
Panther

The Panther provides the perfect combination of mobility and anti-tank capacity, making it the ideal counter to heavy armor. Its cutting edge suspension enables it to easily traverse even the roughest of terrain, enabling it to execute flanking maneuvers on unsuspecting armor.
Penetration from 170 to 240
Rear armor from 112.5 to 110
Reload from 6.45 to 5.8-6.7
Health from 960 to 800
Manpower from 520 to 490
Fuel from 145 to 175
Vet 2 now provides 10% armor and 160 health


It is quite clear that Panther was given high penetration to deal with heavily armored vehicles.

I have made a very simple point:
C.Panhter performance vs Super heavies is not as cost efficient as the C.Tigers although it has similar cost and CP thus it is UP.

CP is a permanent aura unit that boosts all mechanized and later on, all units by bolstering their performance.
CT is not, its timed abilities have only temporary effects.

Yes, CP will look up compared to CT if you completely ignore what CP does on top of being a panther, which is constant boost of performance of everything around it at all times other units are in its presence.

CP is a force multiplier, not self sufficient death machine and CT is as much of a command vehicle as vet1 KV-1.

CP is a permanent aura unit that boosts all mechanized and later on, all units by bolstering their performance.
CT is not, its timed abilities have only temporary effects.

Yes, CP will look up compared to CT if you completely ignore what CP does on top of being a panther, which is constant boost of performance of everything around it at all times other units are in its presence.

If the point you want to make is that C.Panther performance vs Super heavies is as cost efficient as the C.Tigers or better, the stat prove you wrong.

CP is a force multiplier, not self sufficient death machine and CT is as much of a command vehicle as vet1 KV-1.

Word of advice, load the game, then you will learn that the KV-1 is not a Command vehicle when it reaches vet 1...

If the point you want to make is that C.Panther performance vs Super heavies is as cost efficient as the C.Tigers or better, the stat prove you wrong.

You are either best in the world in not understanding written text or you know damn well that's not what I said and are making a pitiful attempt at spinning things around to match your personal narrative YET AGAIN.

Word of advice, load the game, then you will learn that the KV-1 is not a Command vehicle when it reaches vet 1...

You're right on this one, its KV-2 and 8.
Point still stands.
You're smarter then an average rock even if equally dense, so there is at least 3% chance you still got the point.