Since OKW currently crutches on a single commander (well unit, the Tiger) I believe the best avenue to fix them up a bit is not buffing the stock army, but slightly fixing up the doctrines. These buffs are in anticipation of the upcoming heavy tank nerfs.
Fortification doctrine: Artillery Field Officer from Ostheer added and bundled LeFH with Pak43.
Scavenge doctrine: Ostwind should require Panzer authorization or just Schwerer HQ if Med HQ and Mech HQ are up. +2 fuel from thorough salvage.
Special Operations: Make the Command Panther a bit better vs infantry.
Luftwaffe Forces: Remove faust from Falls, replace heavy fortifications with Osttruppen doc supply drop.
Breakthrough doctrine: Replace panzerfusiliers with breakthrough equipment (satchel for Spios, smoke nade for STG Volks, Mark target for Obers)
Elite Armoured: Replace 221/223 with 200mp/30fuel 222 built from HQ when first truck is set up. Improve Sturmtiger damage.
Overwatch: Reduce flares set up time, slightly improve sector assault a bit
The Great OKW commander balancing
19 Dec 2019, 20:45 PM
#1
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
19 Dec 2019, 21:16 PM
#2
Posts: 731
Assault Package—bundle IRstg and Volks MP40,volks mp40 increase squad size to 6
Flamethrower bundle with FlamePanzer and Incendiary Ammunition
Breakthrough Tactical——Increase to 40 ammo,when active increase Infantry speed like radio silence
Heavy Fortification——Allowed SP build Flak38,Tank trap and Taylor Mine
Field Defence——To 0cp,bundle with Thorough Salvage,and after build Panzer HQ bunker can upgrade medic station
Overwatch Flare——replace by Soviet infantry Flare trap
StormTiger——Increase range ,Make it be heavy medium range artillery.Or remove reload debuff,reduce aim time and add automatic grenade,be Close range Assault unit
Flamethrower bundle with FlamePanzer and Incendiary Ammunition
Breakthrough Tactical——Increase to 40 ammo,when active increase Infantry speed like radio silence
Heavy Fortification——Allowed SP build Flak38,Tank trap and Taylor Mine
Field Defence——To 0cp,bundle with Thorough Salvage,and after build Panzer HQ bunker can upgrade medic station
Overwatch Flare——replace by Soviet infantry Flare trap
StormTiger——Increase range ,Make it be heavy medium range artillery.Or remove reload debuff,reduce aim time and add automatic grenade,be Close range Assault unit
19 Dec 2019, 21:25 PM
#3
Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3
20 Dec 2019, 00:10 AM
#4
Posts: 1096
Generally no to all of it as this would ruin team games. OKW is fine as it is and requires no buffs as far as i can see.
20 Dec 2019, 00:14 AM
#5
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Generally no to all of it as this would ruin team games. OKW is fine as it is and requires no buffs as far as i can see.
Should I put huge neon lights around the 2nd sentence since everyone refuses to read it?
20 Dec 2019, 01:58 AM
#6
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The reason of Soviet overhaul was the commander dependence and now OP seem to be asking for OKW to become commander dependent so imo that is a step in the wrong direction.
So actually I would suggest the exact opposite nerf the Tiger commander...
If OKW start being UP as Ostheer and UKF seem to be, simply nerf Soviets and USF...
So actually I would suggest the exact opposite nerf the Tiger commander...
If OKW start being UP as Ostheer and UKF seem to be, simply nerf Soviets and USF...
20 Dec 2019, 02:02 AM
#7
Posts: 5279
Should I put huge neon lights around the 2nd sentence since everyone refuses to read it?
The justification doesn't make sense though. Most okw commanders are quite good, but breakthrough is just much much better. Fussies cover OKW's early game weakness and the tiger is great. Nerfing heavy armour doesn't require buffing everything. Some of the changes you suggested are good looking changes to me (some not) but they don't need it on the basis of way to early heavy tanks getting delayed
#stalinwept
20 Dec 2019, 05:24 AM
#8
Posts: 857 | Subs: 2
After the changes in the September patch OKW commanders are a lot better than before.
So i dont think that we need drastic changes (these should come to lackluster Wehr commanders).
I would like to see only 2 changes:
- Commando Panther useful against infantry
- Incendiary rounds from Firestorm commander replaced by the Arty officer
- Incendiary rounds new vet 1 ability for leIgs
And yes, the Sturmtiger sucks hard in Elite Armor and i would like to see it replaced but i dont think that this is an realistic option anymore.
20 Dec 2019, 09:12 AM
#9
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
The justification doesn't make sense though. Most okw commanders are quite good, but breakthrough is just much much better. Fussies cover OKW's early game weakness and the tiger is great. Nerfing heavy armour doesn't require buffing everything. Some of the changes you suggested are good looking changes to me (some not) but they don't need it on the basis of way to early heavy tanks getting delayed
Breakthrough is very good and imo the 2nd best doctrine after Grand O, which is why it probably doesn’t need a change. I guess I suggested a bunch of potential buffs to see what people would like.
The reason of Soviet overhaul was the commander dependence and now OP seem to be asking for OKW to become commander dependent so imo that is a step in the wrong direction.
Yes slight commander buffs like +2 fuel from thorough salvage and a slight change to ostwind timing on Scavenge will make OKW super commander dependent.
Meanwhile everyone is crutching on tiger atm which I guess is fine for you.
Oh wait no, gotta nerf everyone instead. I’m sure that’s gonna happen.
20 Dec 2019, 16:03 PM
#10
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yes slight commander buffs like +2 fuel from thorough salvage and a slight change to ostwind timing on Scavenge will make OKW super commander dependent.
Let me try to explain to you this since you seem have trouble understanding. If one commander is used mostly that means the commander is OP and it should be nered. The other commander should not be buffed because of it.
Meanwhile everyone is crutching on tiger atm which I guess is fine for you.
I am one of the first persons that identified the issue with OKW Tiger even from the preview of the specific commander before even the Heavy meta started, so PLS DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
Oh wait no, gotta nerf everyone instead. I’m sure that’s gonna happen.
Again pls respond to what I actually post and PLS DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
Not all OKW commander should be nerfed The Tiger one should. The rest should come to closer power level.
And no there is no reason to turn OKW commander to OStheer clones. There is no reason for:
Artillery Field Officer, satchel for Spios, smoke nade for STG Volks, Mark target for Obers, 222 as you suggest in OP.
20 Dec 2019, 17:00 PM
#11
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
The justification doesn't make sense though. Most okw commanders are quite good, but breakthrough is just much much better. Fussies cover OKW's early game weakness and the tiger is great. Nerfing heavy armour doesn't require buffing everything. Some of the changes you suggested are good looking changes to me (some not) but they don't need it on the basis of way to early heavy tanks getting delayed
You mean grand offensive right? Unless you're talking about the Jagdtiger.
20 Dec 2019, 17:11 PM
#12
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
"anticipation of upcoming heavy tank nerf" is this confirmed or just OP's conjecture?
@ OP - Breakthrough is straight nerf to doctrine by removing Fussies
- Making Command Panther an allrounder seems like a really bad idea when is already has tons of utility with aura, mark vehicle, and good sight
- Elite Armor does need buffed but it's pretty hard to balance Sturmtiger to be useful without being cancerous . Removing 221 doesn't sound appetizing to remove a unique unit just to get a stock OST unit... Maybe a side upgrade where 222 becomes available if Mechanized is deployed?
- The rest isn't too bad... I do agree on principle that Grand Offensive is pretty much in a class of it's own when compared to other commanders (though that's not to say that a good number of them aren't viable to use)
@ OP - Breakthrough is straight nerf to doctrine by removing Fussies
- Making Command Panther an allrounder seems like a really bad idea when is already has tons of utility with aura, mark vehicle, and good sight
- Elite Armor does need buffed but it's pretty hard to balance Sturmtiger to be useful without being cancerous . Removing 221 doesn't sound appetizing to remove a unique unit just to get a stock OST unit... Maybe a side upgrade where 222 becomes available if Mechanized is deployed?
- The rest isn't too bad... I do agree on principle that Grand Offensive is pretty much in a class of it's own when compared to other commanders (though that's not to say that a good number of them aren't viable to use)
20 Dec 2019, 22:01 PM
#13
Posts: 5279
You mean grand offensive right? Unless you're talking about the Jagdtiger.
Yes that's correct. My error.
#stalinwept
22 Dec 2019, 09:39 AM
#14
Posts: 1096
Should I put huge neon lights around the 2nd sentence since everyone refuses to read it?
I took this into account. Even with heavy tank nerfs OKW will be fine.
22 Dec 2019, 10:29 AM
#15
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
I took this into account. Even with heavy tank nerfs OKW will be fine.
Yeah I’m sure the faction with a negative win rate despite crutching on an OP unit will be absolutely fine when that unit is taken away.
22 Dec 2019, 11:26 AM
#16
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Yeah I’m sure the faction with a negative win rate despite crutching on an OP unit will be absolutely fine when that unit is taken away.
Well, OKW didn't really rely that much on heavies as ost or soviets.
New tiger sure is what they go for in replacement of command panther, but that's more because its safe choice, not faction holding pillar(brits can have a word about these and how it turns out losing them).
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Dec 2019, 11:39 AM
#17
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Well, OKW didn't really rely that much on heavies as ost or soviets.
New tiger sure is what they go for in replacement of command panther, but that's more because its safe choice, not faction holding pillar(brits can have a word about these and how it turns out losing them).
Problem is the Tiger crutching started alongside the Volk/early game nerfs and USF buffs, so minus the crutch things are worse than they were during the Spec Ops era. I really don’t wanna see another post Mobile defense nerf Ostheer situation.
22 Dec 2019, 12:11 PM
#18
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Problem is the Tiger crutching started alongside the Volk/early game nerfs and USF buffs
That doesn't make sense. The Tiger I is a lategame unit that relies on good early and mid game performance to even arrive because it costs so much to call in. What do the early game adjustments have to do with that? It's not a crutch unit for OKW, it's a crutch unit for facing the IS-2 as it's the only reliable counter. And OKW's Tiger I is preferred over Ostheer's one because OKW with its Puma is more reliable against light vehicles.
The WCS stats do seem to support this (although not definitively so of course, because of very low sample size) as Grand Offensive was picked in 66% of games against Soviets and only in 36% of games against USF. So players apparently do not feel like the Tiger I is the only option for OKW, just that it's the only good option to face the IS-2. The Tiger I is a very good unit, but not "OKW's only crutch".
22 Dec 2019, 12:17 PM
#19
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
That doesn't make sense. The Tiger I is a lategame unit that relies on good early and mid game performance to even arrive because it costs so much to call in. What do the early game adjustments have to do with that? It's not a crutch unit for OKW, it's a crutch unit for facing the IS-2 as it's the only reliable counter. And OKW's Tiger I is preferred over Ostheer's one because OKW with its Puma is more reliable against light vehicles.
The WCS stats do seem to support this (although not definitively so of course, because of very low sample size) as Grand Offensive was picked in 66% of games against Soviets and only in 36% of games against USF. So players apparently do not feel like the Tiger I is the only option for OKW, but is the only good option to face the IS-2.
If it’s a crutch against the IS2, then why did people not go Elite Armoured for HEAT shells?
Either they were wrong, or your assessment of the Tiger being an IS2 counterpick is wrong.
22 Dec 2019, 12:19 PM
#20
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
If it’s a crutch against the IS2, then why did people not go Elite Armoured for HEAT shells?
Either they were wrong, or your assessment of the Tiger being an IS2 counterpick is wrong.
Because effectiveness =/= efficiency. Getting Jagdpanzer IVs or Panthers and continuously sink munitions into HEAT shells is effective too, but why take the risk when it's more efficient to go for a Tiger I that doesn't need munitions to fight the IS-2 and can also fight infantry at the same time?
Strong Soviet lategame (efficient 7 men Cons and IS-2) is what's causing some problems and forcing the Axis into a corner. Minor nerfs to both should give the Axis more options to fight the lategame and lower their reliance on the Tiger I.
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