Stats from the WCS 2019 2.0 - Siphon X version

I maintain that this largely indicates strength of light vehicles, which is a huge component of high level play.

Note the winrates follow the strength of light vehicles:

1. Sov : T-70
2. USF : m20->stuart / AA HT
3. luchs / puma
4. 222
5. aec (lol)

Ostheer and UKF are really backed into a corner in the midgame when light vehicles come out. You need to rely on your opponent fucking up and losing their light vehicle, or hold them off with support weapons. Then you also need to factor in protecting the support weapons, because if they get rushed and stolen it's pretty much GG.


I would look into some alternative methods to prevent light vehicles rushes from raping all the support weapons. A new idea to try would give the light tanks (stuart, luchs, t-70) a RELIABLE weapon destroyed crit on heavy damage, after two full damage AT gun shots. In the past they were upped from taking 2 AT gun shots to die to 3, which is when they became very oppressive. The goal is to prevent diving for support weapons and just tanking the shots to get up close where you can circlestrafe.

The key to this working is to make it reliable and predictable, no frustrating RNG like we used to have.

...
Elite Armor was in loadouts 13 times. It was actually picked only 3 times, by only two players if I'm reading these stats correctly, so this does not really indicate anything. Other than that these two players happened to not build the unit for whatever unknown reason.

You are right about the times used and I corrected the numbers.

For me even 3 games it is indication that the unit is not in good place since it is the only early ability the commander has.

The unit is simply in the same case with PF cost too much upfront in early game while it "might" payoff in late game.

It should simply be separated to 221 and 223 and the 2 units should be designed balanced and cost differently.

What I personally find interesting it is the following:
39 Grand Offensive Doctrine
4 Breakthrough Doctrine
total 41 time.

Panzerfüsiliers used in 18 total games total number produced 36.

39+4=43 but 6 of those are only used for commander picks and not for the meta. So, 37 games for which we have units and out of these 18 saw Panzerfuessiliers, correct.

Can we please all realise that these stats do not confirm anything. The sample size is way too low, and because of that there are numerous factors that make these statistics unreliable. As Siphon specifically notes in his observations:



These statistics are very globally indicative of trends at best, and not even remotely close to anything definitive.



Elite Armor was in loadouts 13 times. It was actually picked only 3 times, by only two players if I'm reading these stats correctly, so this does not really indicate anything. Other than that these two players happened to not build the unit for whatever unknown reason.

Well, when my Ost win rate magically halfs since the last patch (and I used to be 2v2 top 10 every now and then) and I see a win rate of roughly a third of the Ost games played in the tournament it prooves enough for me.

Problem is simply that Soviet heavies and large weapon crews can not be countered by German T4. The artillery is inadequate and the tanks are mediocre. Brummbär was nerfed too hard because it isn't allowed to coutner AT guns (while KV-8s, ISUs etc. are allowed to). The infantry is worse since it's 4 men. So you have the short stick in almost every relevant regard with Ostheer.

Well, when my Ost win rate magically halfs since the last patch (and I used to be 2v2 top 10 every now and then) and I see a win rate of roughly a third of the Ost games played in the tournament it prooves enough for me.

Problem is simply that Soviet heavies and large weapon crews can not be countered by German T4. The artillery is inadequate and the tanks are mediocre. Brummbär was nerfed too hard because it isn't allowed to coutner AT guns (while KV-8s, ISUs etc. are allowed to). The infantry is worse since it's 4 men. So you have the short stick in almost every relevant regard with Ostheer.

Pretty much this.

I don't think there is any question that Wehrmacht is in a sorry state, especially in regards to lategame.

I maintain that this largely indicates strength of light vehicles, which is a huge component of high level play.

Note the winrates follow the strength of light vehicles:

1. Sov : T-70
2. USF : m20->stuart / AA HT
3. luchs / puma
4. 222
5. aec (lol)

USF had a higher win rate than Soviets. Why would you rate Stuart> Puma/Luchs? Why would you rate 222> AEC? Makes little sense to me.

The reason why Sov/USF was so strong is more the crazy Soviet late game and general power level of USF across all units.

Note the winrates follow the strength of light vehicles:

1. Sov : T-70
2. USF : m20->stuart / AA HT
3. luchs / puma
4. 222
5. aec (lol)

It also pretty much follows "mainline infantry" (including doc-infantry as mainline) strength.

Sov -> 7man cons / Penals scaling insanely well with little-to-no lategame MP bleed
USF -> Rifles insane scaling and high utility (Bars, M1919, Zooks)
OKW -> Falls/PF becoming very strong late-game, Volks very good early/mid
OST -> Grens scaling poorly in mid/late, but still somewhat viable
UKF -> Make-or-break bolster, no AT snare, very vulnerable to snipers

It also pretty much follows "mainline infantry" (including doc-infantry as mainline) strength.

Sov -> 7man cons / Penals scaling insanely well with little-to-no lategame MP bleed
USF -> Rifles insane scaling and high utility (Bars, M1919, Zooks)
OKW -> Falls/PF becoming very strong late-game, Volks very good early/mid
OST -> Grens scaling poorly in mid/late, but still somewhat viable
UKF -> Make-or-break bolster, no AT snare, very vulnerable to snipers

Actually, penals scale pretty bad compared to other infantry as their relative increase in DPS and durability is lower then most of other infantries through vet and upgrades, you will never see anyone sane rebuilding lost penals, because they don't belong to late game. They do have a solid start tho.

Actually, penals scale pretty bad compared to other infantry as their relative increase in DPS and durability is lower then most of other infantries through vet and upgrades, you will never see anyone sane rebuilding lost penals, because they don't belong to late game. They do have a solid start tho.

news flash penal vet is almost the same as panzrfusi, and their dps is only sightly lower even when pfusi get g43

saying that penal scale badly is a lie, if u mean they don't have upgrade options then that would simply make them the same as any other inf (pgreen, etc)

news flash penal vet is almost the same as panzrfusi, and their dps is only sightly lower even when pfusi get g43

saying that penal scale badly is a lie, if u mean they don't have upgrade options then that would simply make them the same as any other inf (pgreen, etc)

What you have said doesn't change or negate in any way what I have said.
In fact, you're repeating what I have said with one of the exception examples, which I also specifically said exist, which you even bolded out.

Reading comprehension much?

What you have said doesn't change or negate in any way what I have said.
In fact, you're repeating what I have said with one of the exception examples, which I also specifically said exist, which you even bolded out.

Reading comprehension much?

im sorry then tell me why they have bad vet ? Especially considering at vet 3 they have better far dps than pfusi with g 43 vs vet 5 ?

uneless u are saying that pfusi scale badly, but im quite sure u said the opposite the pfusi thread like all other faction oriented users here

im sorry then tell me why they have bad vet ? Especially considering at vet 3 they have better far dps than pfusi with g 43 vs vet 5 ?

He said they scaled bad which includes vet and upgrades. G43 fussies also get bonus vision and have snares/flares

uneless u are saying that pfusi scale badly, but im quite sure u said the opposite the pfusi thread like all other faction oriented users here

How about making arguments based on what you're sure of rather than what you think someone else maybe said? If I'm defending katitof then you're doing something wrong

He said they scaled bad which includes vet and upgrades. G43 fussies also get bonus vision and have snares/flares



How about making arguments based on what you're sure of rather than what you think someone else maybe said? If I'm defending katitof then you're doing something wrong

that argument is pretty stupid just cause they lack AI upgrades it does not make them bad, or pgreen would be in a very bad spot by that logic

penal scale very well with AI if u don't upgrade them and are still perfectly serviceable for AT in late game with the satchels

or would u like an infantry that dominate early, has 6 men and can upgrade AI weapons for late game ?

that argument is pretty stupid just cause they lack AI upgrades it does not make them bad, or pgreen would be in a very bad spot by that logic

You keep digging your hole in this argument.

Honestly look into fixing heavy tanks and remove the reinforce cost reduction that Cons get with the Mobilized Reserves upgrade since the bonuses they get in cover are already quite good and allow them to trade well regardless. If the IS-2 and KV-2 are toned down and Cons are slightly toned down that would be fine.

Actually, penals scale pretty bad compared to other infantry as their relative increase in DPS and durability is lower then most of other infantries through vet and upgrades, you will never see anyone sane rebuilding lost penals, because they don't belong to late game. They do have a solid start tho.

That is incorrect Penal get on of the highest DPS with veterancy compared to other mainline infatry:
Penal vet 3 190% DPS increase
Conscripts vet 3 167% DPS increase
Grenadier vet 3 149% DPS increase
Riflemen vet 3 140% DPS increase
VG vet 3 138% DPS increase
IS vet 3 124% DPS increase

(some number might be out of date but that should not affect the ratio.)

That is incorrect Penal get on of the highest DPS with veterancy compared to other mainline infatry:
Penal vet 3 190% DPS increase
Conscripts vet 3 167% DPS increase
Grenadier vet 3 149% DPS increase
Riflemen vet 3 140% DPS increase
VG vet 3 138% DPS increase
IS vet 3 124% DPS increase

(some number might be out of date but that should not affect the ratio.)

Are these numbers with their default weapons and at what range???

that argument is pretty stupid just cause they lack AI upgrades it does not make them bad,

...

He said they scaled bad which includes vet and upgrades. G43 fussies also get bonus vision and have snares/flares

"Just cause they lack AI upgrades?" I could not of more clearly said its a combination of things, and point out exactly where I said they are bad? Great in the early game for AI, great late game for ptrs+satchel

or pgreen would be in a very bad spot by that logic

Friendly reminder that they have a good AI upgrade on several doctrines. Ambush camo is also really good with them

or would u like an infantry that dominate early, has 6 men and can upgrade AI weapons for late game ?

Where do you see me saying anything remotely close to buff penals?

That is incorrect Penal get on of the highest DPS with veterancy compared to other mainline infatry:
Penal vet 3 190% DPS increase
Conscripts vet 3 167% DPS increase
Grenadier vet 3 149% DPS increase
Riflemen vet 3 140% DPS increase
VG vet 3 138% DPS increase
IS vet 3 124% DPS increase

(some number might be out of date but that should not affect the ratio.)

You compared only the range 35 Dps from a vet 0 squad with the range 35 Dps from the same squad but with vet 3(and without any weapon upgrade)?!?
Thats pretty worthless imo and doesnt prove anything.
So i tried to take the average Dps from range 0 to range 35 for penals and stg volks.

My results: a, a Vet 5 volks squad with stgs has 77,89% more dps than vet 0 volks with k98.
b, a Vet 3 penal squad has 64,84% more dps than vet 0 penals.
Note: The vet 1 penal ability got ignored.
Conclusion: Volks scale slightly better than penals. If you consider the vet 1 penal passive, both units scale pretty similar probably.

Seems alright, cause volks have (one of) the worst scaling weapon upgrade(s).
The only nondoc mainline inf, which could scale worse than penals, are pgrens due to no (nondoc)weapon upgrade.
Most other squads get a massive dps increase because of their lmg/bren/bar upgrade (grens, obers, is, rifle).

So Katitof is right, penals dont scale as good as other upgraded and vetted mainline inf.
But due to their excellent starting dps, their vet 1 passive and their above average acc vet, they are still able to compete in the late game.
Their vet 3 dps is comparable to the vet 5 g43 pfs dps (less near dps, more long range dps).
And thats pretty good imo.