Maxim Sustained Fire

I just explained how that is not true. Soviets have the M3 flamer or the mortar available right at the start. USF has a T0 mortar. UKF has the UC Vickers to deal with HMG 42s in the open. Only UKF struggles against HMG 42s in a garrisons until they get T1 and the Wasp or the mortar pit, but "the other guys are having a bad time too" is not a reason to make things worse for OKW.

OKW on the other hand has nothing at T0 except infantry spam. On maps where they can't flank, they need either a Luchs or an LeIG to counter Maxim spam effectively (especially if Maxims would get buffed), which don't come until 4-6 minutes into the game, which would mean early Maxim spam on certain teamgames maps could push OKW off the resources quite easily and right at the start of the match.

If Brits can survive MG42 use on the same maps, OKW can be expected to do the same.

The LeiG and Mortar Pit are not that different in terms of actual accessibility. The UC recently got a set of nerfs. APIT rounds on the 42 delete UCs in ways the maxim can never emulate. Etc.

I doubt that "indirect" = mortar helps vs mgs

That's not an easy alternative at all.

My main issue is that Maxims need a 6 men crew for the deathloop issue and are therefor very durable, while also being available right at the start of a game (unlike the M2HB and DshK, that can have better stats to compensate for the deathloop instead because they come a lot later), while also having a faster reposition time than the other T0 HMGs, which means it can't have good stock stats because then 2-3 Maxims would quite easily shut OKW down completely on corridor or urban maps (like Red Ball Express or Lienne Forest) right from the start because OKW does not have anything in T0 that could counter it (USF had a T0 mortar added to deal with early HMG 42s for a reason) besides flanking/overwhelming with infantry, which isn't really possible in corridors or against garrisons.

Besides that, there's always the risk of enabling the infamous Maxim spam again, which is something I'm sure everyone would like to avoid.

If the problem is minute 1 availability, just rework the tech tree and require T1 before you go T2.

Brits at least have the Vickers UC to contest HMG 42s out in the open. HMG 42s are easier to flank because of lower durability, slower traverse and a slower redeploy time too. But that doesn't really matter, as I've already said before, UKF with their lack of T0 indirect having trouble with early game HMG spam does not mean we should make it even harder for OKW too. This is not about "them versus us", this is about making sure we keep early game HMG spam effectiveness to a minimum.

Is or is not the UKF's struggles with MGs a problem that needs fixing, and if the solution to UKF's problems with MGs is changing the faction(and not nerfing the mg42), shouldn't the same philosophy be applied to OKW?
This being the case, the issue isn't really with the MG42's power or the maxim's potential power, but rather with 2 specific factions who's tech and unit roster leave them vulnerable to specific unit compositions.


So for OKW, swap the concussive grenades for smoke grenades-Done. Not only does it help OKW against MGs early game, but it would have better synergism with sturm's weapons in other scenarios.

Imo sniper is better counter to mg than mortar.

For wehr, mortar is soft counter. You can also do smoke but grens lack dps to really force off mg, especially against faster 6 man maxim.

You need more painful arty to call it a hard counter. Making a single Mortar is more of an annoyance to mg

Okw simply don't even have access to these early on. I dont see why maxim need such buff further more with no reload??

If Brits can survive MG42 use on the same maps, OKW can be expected to do the same.

The LeiG and Mortar Pit are not that different in terms of actual accessibility. The UC recently got a set of nerfs. APIT rounds on the 42 delete UCs in ways the maxim can never emulate. Etc.

I mean give OKW a sniper after 10F investment like UKF or a heavy armored kubel that can upgrade and suppress and defeat garrisons and yeah, then they're on par.

And its not that other factions don't struggle vs things like MG42 spam like USF or garrisons like UKF. It's that the faction abusing is gimmicky and stupid and shouldn't be there, so why would we intentionally RE-add something that abused the hell out of a faction in the past.

Why does it need an ability to perform correctly? And a vet 1 locked that costs munitions no less...

I'm pretty confused by what I read so far, some guys here actually think the maxim serves any purpose in 1v1 other than getting wiped?

Why does it need an ability to perform correctly? And a vet 1 locked that costs munitions no less...

I'm pretty confused by what I read so far, some guys here actually think the maxim serves any purpose in 1v1 other than getting wiped?

Of course it does. It will ALSO give okw 5 fuel (cause they sure as shit ain't gunna recrew a weapon that barely works with 6 models and hope it works with 4)

Somewhere out there a wild vonivan is dreaming of what could be with a sudden Maxim buff

Brits at least have the Vickers UC to contest HMG 42s out in the open. HMG 42s are easier to flank because of lower durability, slower traverse and a slower redeploy time too. But that doesn't really matter, as I've already said before, UKF with their lack of T0 indirect having trouble with early game HMG spam does not mean we should make it even harder for OKW too. This is not about "them versus us", this is about making sure we keep early game HMG spam effectiveness to a minimum.

The WASP...

With all due respect when was the last time you saw any player in the top 100 build one of these in a competitive game. Don't get me wrong I applaud the balance team for a lot of changes relic were slow to deal with but I have to say this paragraph you typed is really mind boggling


There's a couple reasons why these forums and top players are moaning for smoke and a mortar to deal with axis team weapons. And the WASP being a waste of resources with how fragile, awkward to use and close it had to get to engage is one of them.

It's in the current overnerf trashcan the comet was in for two years and is in dire need of a redesign and timing.

If you still feel the WASP is Brits answer to countering MG42s and garrisons then how about opening a thread about how players feel for some input? Or you could search previous threads that have been made the last year or so, most feedback is that the unit sucks and to just give Brits a mortar.

Man, if only the UC could upgrade with smoke launchers. Relic missed a good opportunity.

The WASP...

With all due respect when was the last time you saw any player in the top 100 build one of these in a competitive game. Don't get me wrong I applaud the balance team for a lot of changes relic were slow to deal with but I have to say this paragraph you typed is really mind boggling


There's a couple reasons why these forums and top players are moaning for smoke and a mortar to deal with axis team weapons. And the WASP being a waste of resources with how fragile, awkward to use and close it had to get to engage is one of them.

It's in the current overnerf trashcan the comet was in for two years and is in dire need of a redesign and timing.

If you still feel the WASP is Brits answer to countering MG42s and garrisons then how about opening a thread about how players feel for some input? Or you could search previous threads that have been made the last year or so, most feedback is that the unit sucks and to just give Brits a mortar.

I wasn't talking about the WASP, I was talking about the Vickers upgrade that can deal significant damage to HMG 42s that aren't in garrisons or heavy cover. Usually enough to force a retreat.

I'm (we are) aware that the WASP is currently a bit underwhelming, especially versus HMG 42s in garrisons, and the WASP upgrade is likely to get an armor increase.

I wasn't talking about the WASP, I was talking about the Vickers upgrade that can deal significant damage to HMG 42s that aren't in garrisons or heavy cover. Usually enough to force a retreat.

I'm (we are) aware that the WASP is currently a bit underwhelming, especially versus HMG 42s in garrisons, and the WASP upgrade is likely to get an armor increase.

What’s the balance team’s view on the Maxim?

I wasn't talking about the WASP, I was talking about the Vickers upgrade that can deal significant damage to HMG 42s that aren't in garrisons or heavy cover. Usually enough to force a retreat.

I'm (we are) aware that the WASP is currently a bit underwhelming, especially versus HMG 42s in garrisons, and the WASP upgrade is likely to get an armor increase.

This was true until the recent armour nerf. The MG42's damage output is far too high to use UC against one reliably. If the maverick ost player has gone for the RoF and pen bulletins on their MGs it's a straight up curb stomp.

The APIT rounds delate a UC outright and making the self repair more expensive despite the fact the Brits do not start with a squad of engineers (or even the ability to buy one) has made keeping an early UC alive as well as buying its upgrade for engaging an MG far too expensive.

(Never mind my personal gripe about 'trading with fausts' when button and pander tactician are still lopsided in cost.)

The UC is not an answer to MG42s any more.

And yet the Brits make do in 4v4 scenarios against a better machine gun, and you still think the maxim is not allowed to have the same freedom? Even though it never scales to engage light vehicles ever? And OKW can buy 221s?

This was true until the recent armour nerf. The MG42's damage output is far too high to use UC against one reliably. If the maverick ost player has gone for the RoF and pen bulletins on their MGs it's a straight up curb stomp.

It works well enough in conjunction with an Infantry Section. I know it's not a perfect counter, but it's better than nothing.

The pen bulletin gives +3% penetration, so on mid range (where the UC will be engaging) it will give the HMG 42 1.854 pen instead of 1.8, which ultimately gives 32% chance to pen 5.8 armor instead of 31%. That gives the UC an effective healthpool of 406 vs 403 against an HMG 42 at mid range, or 1 extra bullet (4 dmg). So unless I'm mistaken, it's completely negligible.

ROF bulletin gives +4% ROF, giving it 16.64 ROF at mid range compared to 16, which translates into 66.56 vs 64 pure damage per second (accuracy is always 100% vs a vehicle), giving it 21 vs 20 DPS against a UC (with the 32% pen chance with the pen bulletin), or a 19,33s vs 20.3s flat TTK. Which again is mostly a negligible increase when taking into account the cooldowns between bursts, greatly increasing the actual TTK (almost doubling it to something around 30-40s I think) which means that that 1s advantage will be next to no difference.

The APIT rounds delate a UC outright

AP rounds are not available in the first ~5-8 minutes of a game. Which makes it irrelevant for the point I'm making (that HMGs shouldn't easily shut down factions on certain maps in the first 5 minutes). And again, the fact that UKF struggles against early HMG 42 spam means that UKF should get (have gotten) better ways to deal with that. It does not mean we should buff the Maxim and throw OKW even further down the same hole.

...

Main issue with Wasp is the cost and the fact that it goes to faust range.

Making the upgrade cheaper and immune to engine damage would help the unit allot

Finally moving the DOT to an ability would help to better balance the unit, (as all flame vehicles)

On the matter of Maxim as long as it is available so early it should not receive a major buff. Unless one would experiment in delaying the T2.

Soviet have more starting option than other faction and not all of them need to be as good at all maps vs all opponents.

On the matter of Maxim as long as it is available so early it should not receive a major buff. Unless one would experiment in delaying the T2.

Exactly, rework the Soviet tech so that T1 has to be built before T2 and adjust costs and T1 units. That way Maxims will be available later, meaning they could be adjusted accordingly.

You could then add Conscripts to T1 and stop Soviet lack of teching until much later.

You could then add Conscripts to T1 and stop Soviet lack of teching until much later.

Then T1 should have its MP cost reduced to 80 to match Wehrmacht, or starting manpower proportionately buffed, because that would just be a massive nerf to a conscript start, the entire thing would just as well limit the soviet opening options, what's the point of building conscripts if you get penals in the same building?

Edited
Exactly, rework the Soviet tech so that T1 has to be built before T2 and adjust costs and T1 units. That way Maxims will be available later, meaning they could be adjusted accordingly.

You could then add Conscripts to T1 and stop Soviet lack of teching until much later.

While we are at it, remove the bonus sight from pio,s since cons and mollies and mortar will arrive later giving the fatastic mg 42 lots of breathing room.
Since t70 will arive later make the teller not one shot all lights anymore. You should have counters ready bye then.
Since the mortar will arrive later it will need a buf in its smoke and barrage ability because ost gets to dig in more then now. Ow yeah dont forget the maxim buff...
Cons should get at nades right out of the gate ofcourse.


How will will okw be nerfed changed not to roflstomp sov early game and snowball them?



This tech locking of sov early game will have a very big impact. Be carefull what you wish for.

While we are at it, remove the bonus sight from pio,s since cons and mollies and mortar will arrive later giving the fatastic mg 42 lots of breathing room.
Since t70 will arive later make the teller not one shot all lights anymore. You should have counters ready bye then.
Since the mortar will arrive later it will need a buf in its smoke and barrage ability because ost gets to dig in more then now. Ow yeah dont forget the maxim buff...

How will will okw be nerfed changed not to roflstomp sov early game and snowball them?



This tech locking of sov early game will have a very big impact. Be carefull what you wish for.

What are you talking about? The primary suggestion is to make it T1 -> T2 -> T3 and -> T4. The consn to T1 thing would require putting something else in T0 and adjusting costs and starting resources to keep it balanced like it is now. I’m not advocating for a nerf/buff.