About IS

So when a Volks squad or a Grenadier squad is dug in and an allied assault unit closes in and wins the engagement, no problem whatsoever. However when the same thing happens to an infantry section it’s mind boggling.

Very interesting.

If only there was non-doctrinal elite close range units to deter those pesky assault troops from charging.

These factions aren't identical. The units described aren't identical. It's not the same problem.

If only there was non-doctrinal elite close range units to deter those pesky assault troops from charging.

These factions aren't identical. The units described aren't identical. It's not the same problem.

Yes because the primary use of Pgrens is to protect Grenadiers lol, as evident by......um.....hm

Almost as if having 4-5 Grens on the field and expecting a Pgren squad to protect them from units closing in on the isn’t realistic. But what could you do then? Use positioning, garrisons, MGs and Light vehicles while also picking your engagements carefully?

Nah just go on the forums and complain about faction balance, that’ll show them!

UKF does have a unit to zone assault troops off their Sections. It's called the Vickers. 5-man Sappers are also pretty good at CQC for 210 manpower.

Assault units also generally don't have snares, which makes the UC an excellent option.

UKF does have a unit to zone assault troops off their Sections. It's called the Vickers. 5-man Sappers are also pretty good at CQC for 210 manpower.

Assault units also generally don't have snares, which makes the UC an excellent option.

HMG are available for every faction. Stock Assault troops aren't.

I do agree UC is pretty much a top pick for every Brit build order now.

HMG are available for every faction. Stock Assault troops aren't.

I do agree UC is pretty much a top pick for every Brit build order now.

Come to think of it, Wehrmacht and OKW are the only two with stock assault troops, unless you want to count Penals but I wouldn't.

Yes because the primary use of Pgrens is to protect Grenadiers lol, as evident by......um.....hm

Almost as if having 4-5 Grens on the field and expecting a Pgren squad to protect them from units closing in on the isn’t realistic. But what could you do then? Use positioning, garrisons, MGs and Light vehicles while also picking your engagements carefully?

Nah just go on the forums and complain about faction balance, that’ll show them!

1: Just because a unit isn't normally used in that fashion doesn't mean it can't be used in that way. Stumpios are excellent at holding a green cover position vs charging rifles.

2: False I never said Pgrens's primary use was to protect Grens. I said stock elite assault units exist for Axis which is entirely true. There are 2 axis units with full 4 Stg models.

3: Talking about realistic scenes in game is as good as "What-aboutism" Your premise is also incomplete and essentially listed core game mechanic in an attempt to say L2p.

4: The Sub-forum COH2 Balance is for balance discussion yes. I question your motive if you are here without the intent of discussing faction balance; in particular, Brit Balance.

That being said, I do think Brit sections shouldn't be beating assault troops 100% of the time on approach. I really hope the balance team rethinks this dependency on Bolster and choose to either pivot off of it or reserve Bolster as a T3 locked upgrade instead.

Come to think of it, Wehrmacht and OKW are the only two with stock assault troops, unless you want to count Penals but I wouldn't.

Penals are more like a subdivision I like to call the alternate opener mainline. A lot of alternate openers offer some sort of trade off by excelling at one part and plugging some holes in a faction design while introducing new exploitable defects. Penals share role with stuff like Assault Gren, Assault Engineers, Pathfinders, Panzer Fusiliers, and osstrupen. All of these troops have different benefits and tradeoffs compared to the traditional mainline.

Note Brits are the only faction without an alternate opener. They also don't have stock assault infantry. IS is all they got if they don't choose a commando doctrine. If IS can't do the job well, you are fucked.

And for people wondering why UKF is not meta:

It is not about IS being thrash it is about all other factions heaving super good heavy tanks in the heavy tank meta.

1: Just because a unit isn't normally used in that fashion doesn't mean it can't be used in that way. Stumpios are excellent at holding a green cover position vs charging rifles.

2: False I never said Pgrens's primary use was to protect Grens. I said stock elite assault units exist for Axis which is entirely true. There are 2 axis units with full 4 Stg models.

3: Talking about realistic scenes in game is as good as "What-aboutism" Your premise is also incomplete and essentially listed core game mechanic in an attempt to say L2p.

4: The Sub-forum COH2 Balance is for balance discussion yes. I question your motive if you are here without the intent of discussing faction balance; in particular, Brit Balance.

That being said, I do think Brit sections shouldn't be beating assault troops 100% of the time on approach. I really hope the balance team rethinks this dependency on Bolster and choose to either pivot off of it or reserve Bolster as a T3 locked upgrade instead.

You’re gonna get a 6pack from the mental gymanstics of trying to explain to me why poor sections have it worse than Grens.

Come to think of it, Wehrmacht and OKW are the only two with stock assault troops, unless you want to count Penals but I wouldn't.

Riflemen say hi

funny i've been wondering the same when using volks and grens. IF sturms close in from max range vs tommies, sturms lose quite alot of times and MIGHT win some, same with riflemen closing in on grens(pretty sure rifles stomp it harder), but let me guess thats ok tho right?

Changes to IS makes them balanced, all they need now is indirect fire changes like a motar and ther good to go

the only early game allies assault squad is ass engies, i have not run tests with them so i cant say how they fareas for rifles, the gap is the same or greater than that in the sturm/ tommy scenario AND rifles have less utility than either grens or volks, both can build cover (granted grens its a bunker, which counts for more and also less) and grens have a snare. rifles can do less AND cost more. think of it as an RPG stat sheet, the more things you can do the less good you are at any given thing of vs the same points invested in a single stat, not assume the same BUT the rifles in this case had more points and still less variety of skills.

I have no idea why you'd find that alarming, as this is nothing more than how the entirety of the game works. Ostheer Pioneers used perfectly in an ambush at minimum range are still going to lose to Penals or Rifles no matter what, because of the cost difference. Upgraded Grenadiers firing from max range behind cover are still going to lose to a Thompsons Rangers squad closing in no matter what, because of the cost difference. An SU-85 used from max range is still going to lose to a Tiger I closing in no matter what, because of the cost difference. There is simply a limit to how effective a unit is going to be, even when used correctly, which is (amongst other things) set by cost. If the cost difference is high enough, a unit will/should lose no matter what.

Using a unit at its maximum efficiency isn't about having it win versus higher tier units, it's about getting a good trade out of the engagement. And IS used from max range in cover will usually get a good trade versus Sturmpioneers closing in, dropping 2-3 models and rendering the unit ineffective, even if they ultimately lose the engagement.

Again, there are some problems with Infantry Sections, Bolster (as a now mandatory upgrade, that in its current form is making it quite impossible to balance 4 vs 5 men IS) being the biggest one, but stock IS losing to much more expensive Sturmpioneers is hardly one of them.

there is more to a unit than combat potential and price, namely utility. you have a 300mp unit who can: heal troops, repair tanks, lay mines, deny cover, stun enemies (with vet) without any additional teching or upgrades required and fight well at close-mid range vs a 270mp with no utility outside building cover AND have worse stats when outside of cover.
there has ALWAYS been a trade off to having utility. all the scenarios you listed were examples of hard counters lacking any utility vs generalist units. tommies are designed to utilize cover for their best results and are failing to do so. it would be less of an issue if sturms were not a starting unit and it was actually possible to have support for the tommies, but the fct that the very first engagement of the game is a guaranteed loss even if the brit does everything right is bad balance

So when a Volks squad or a Grenadier squad is dug in and an allied assault unit closes in and wins the engagement, no problem whatsoever. However when the same thing happens to an infantry section it’s mind boggling.

Very interesting.

those allied assault squads, with the exception of ass engies all are dedicated AI units whos ONLY job is to attack, they have no added utility, no possibility of being force multipliers not added battlefield application outside attacking, and aside from ass engies they all come far later into the game when there is a possibility of focus fire and defenses might be in place. its a different scenario entirely as there are options available. pgrens are not an issue despite their higher durability and better dps, because there are counters available when they hit the field.


now for the bolded part, this proves you guys are talking out your ass. i have actually done some testing, clearly you guys have not. sturms trade VERY favorably.
here are the results (copied from the post i made after running the tests)

in my tests sturms could attack 4 man tommies behind green cover across no cover and come out on top 9/10 times
of those tests
1 sturm model remained 1 time
2 sturms remained 5 times
3 sturms remianed 2 times
4 sturms remained 1 time
3 tommies remained 1 time

in the win for the tommies 2 sturms dropped before the sand bags

tell me how that is sturms bleeding enough to consider tommies engagement an efficient
these were fights to the death as well, so in all likley hood the tommies would have retreated before some models dropped, which, if no models dropped sturms can heal up the damage and dont even need to give up ground...
run the tests yourself. tommies in green cover on flat ground with o cover in between and tell some sturms to get into the cover and watch how easily the sturms mop up the tommies and tell me thats balanced.

Riflemen say hi

LOL no Riflemen are not assault troops. Assault Engeeners are like (crappy) assault troops.

LOL no Riflemen are not assault troops. Assault Engeeners are like (crappy) assault troops.

You can have either:
> Squad that’s not an assault unit
> Squad that gets buffed in close range dps to dominate every other mainline from close range

You’re gonna get a 6pack from the mental gymanstics of trying to explain to me why poor sections have it worse than Grens.

Wrong. I never said that in the post. Is are not worse than Grens.

Here's the fact, IS scales better than grens.

This does not distract from the fact that Ost have stock assault troops.

If the question is should IS be better than grens that is a discussion. Whatever you're saying is not.

Blah blah blah

Since you’re obviously talking about the super early game, what about T0 vehicle and T0 MG? Also what T0 utility do axis squads have? Assgrens have sprint and Spios have stun nade at Vet 1. What else?

Now do the test with MG&Section vs Spios and Volks. Then do the same tests for MG42&Gren vs Rifle and rifle. Then come back and tell us the results and way the matchups work are the same.

there is more to a unit than combat potential and price, namely utility. you have a 300mp unit who can: heal troops, repair tanks, lay mines, deny cover, stun enemies (with vet) without any additional teching or upgrades required and fight well at close-mid range vs a 270mp with no utility outside building cover AND have worse stats when outside of cover

And besides combat potential and utility, there is also scalability, of which Sturmpioneers have nearly none still (though slightly better since the vet rework), while Infantry Sections have good scaling with Bolster and weapon upgrades. One does not suddenly cancel out the other. The early game engagements are pretty much the only combat potential that Sturmpioneers have, and it's meant to be good.

but the fct that the very first engagement of the game is a guaranteed loss even if the brit does everything right is bad balance

That's simply part of the early game meta. Ostheer's Pioneers will also lose most first engagements, and so will RETs or Combat Engineers. Volksgrenadiers or Grenadiers almost always lose to the more expensive Penals and Riflemen even with good/better positioning. I have no idea why you think only Infantry Sections should be special in this regard.

Again, the point of doing everything right in the (first) engagement is not to win necessarily, but to get a good trade out of it, which can be winning, but can also simply be dealing enough damage (to a more expensive squad) before retreating. And a 270mp IS being used ideally, putting a much more expensive 300mp unit effectively out of action even if ultimately losing the engagement, is a good trade.

Wrong. I never said that in the post. Is are not worse than Grens.

Here's the fact, IS scales better than grens.

This does not distract from the fact that Ost have stock assault troops.

If the question is should IS be better than grens that is a discussion. Whatever you're saying is not.

No dude, Sections don’t have to be better because Pgrens are stock. By the time Pgrens hit the field Sections are 5 men with a Bren and grenades.

Any actual points besides the “muh UP sections”?

One issue I always have with Brits, is that everything always feels so expensive MP wise. I’d like to see Tommies changed to match grens. Make them a 4 man, 240 MP unit; make bolster a universal upgrade that gives them explosive resistance in the late game but no 5th man; make them win slightly vs grens in cover and lose out of cover; and reduce their upkeep and reinforce cost so that the faction can actually play around support weapons and emplacements without constantly struggling with MP.

There is enough about the faction that is different to maintain faction identity with 4 man Tommies.

And besides combat potential and utility, there is also scalability, of which Sturmpioneers have nearly none still (though slightly better since the vet rework), while Infantry Sections have good scaling with Bolster and weapon upgrades. One does not suddenly cancel out the other. The early game engagements are pretty much the only combat potential that Sturmpioneers have, and it's meant to be good.



That's simply part of the early game meta. Ostheer's Pioneers will also lose most first engagements, and so will RETs or Combat Engineers. Volksgrenadiers or Grenadiers almost always lose to the more expensive Penals and Riflemen even with good/better positioning. I have no idea why you think only Infantry Sections should be special in this regard.

Again, the point of doing everything right in the (first) engagement is not to win necessarily, but to get a good trade out of it, which can be winning, but can also simply be dealing enough damage (to a more expensive squad) before retreating. And a 270mp IS being used ideally, putting a much more expensive 300mp unit effectively out of action even if ultimately losing the engagement, is a good trade.

Bolster isn't good scaling, it's a mandatory upgrade because Tommies are ineffective without it. Please keep up. That's what this whole thread is about
As for Sturm scaling you have a very good defense and flanking unit with wicked fast repairs. They have their heap of utility to fall back on when their combat capability is reduced (but not removed. They will ALWAYS draw fire if on the front because they are a threat)

And again, please read. It ISN'T putting the sturms out of action. My tests were to the death so they are dealing as much damage as the squad possibly could and most of the time only dropped 2 models. If you retreat at half health assuming all things linear you would only be dropping a model, which is more than enough to keep them on the front capping or getting beside an mg or something.
As for scaling sturms have many non combat abilities that ensure they are always useful, not simply as front line assault infantry. Scaling shouldn't simply be "buy this or don't be viable at all" and scaling isn't simply how well they fight there is more to this game than cosf=combat power=scaling. You are leaving out the various aspects that make the game great. Things like cover and vision are supposed to matter, doubly so when a unit designed to operate in cover and little else. Ostroppen are designed to operate in cover and generate great value doing so able to effeciently fight more expensive units. Tommies do not.


Tommies should be able to stand on their own as 4 man Tommies or the bolster should be included with tech if it is going to be entirely required. Tommies are supposed to be premiere defenders as they are much weaker than most on the attack.
Perhaps a dps boosting ability that Tommies have when in cover sort of like volley fire without the Supression would be a route to make them able to defend properly, like they are supposed to.

Or maybe Tommies need their cover bonus improved until they are bolstered so that they can perform the tast they are designed to do.

Since you’re obviously talking about the super early game, what about T0 vehicle and T0 MG? Also what T0 utility do axis squads have? Assgrens have sprint and Spios have stun nade at Vet 1. What else?

Now do the test with MG&Section vs Spios and Volks. Then do the same tests for MG42&Gren vs Rifle and rifle. Then come back and tell us the results and way the matchups work are the same.

What utility?

As grens also have a nade barrage. Not very flashy, but is in line with ACTUAL assault units (shocks have armour and smoke and a nade, rangers have an extra weapon slot and a grenade, preupgrade pgrens have a hand nuke. And they all come a bit later as well)

Sturms can lay wire, heal squads (with aoe heals)lay mines, can sweep and put it away to retain their DPS,repair, salvage wrecks and deny the enemy team weapons

Pios have increased LOS, can build multiuser Bunkers, lay area denying minefields or heavy mines that OHK light vehicles. They can also build sandbags and lay wire and repair shit. Can heal themselves or other squads (1 off, but at least it's cheap)

Sturm vs Tommies is a very real scenario as both are starting units. Most of the first clashes between the 2 factions are these 2 units. Losing the first engagement, even when taking all the precautions and proper steps and ceding ground results in lost resources and outs your next engagement at a disadvantage. Perhaps you should do a test where it starts as a match would, with a Sturm vs Tommy, and then follow up with a volks/tommy/mg/UC/Kuble or whatever the 2nd unit for each is without resetting the engagement, as per anither realistic scenario.

Blah blah blah

So let’s examine your “sections UP” complaints.
1. Assgrens can waste 30muni on a barrage that has a huge wind up and is happening while you’re microing the only engagement on the field.
2. Spios do engineer things
3. Pios do engineer things
4. You lose a Tommy vs Sturms engagement at the start so instead of going in a garrison and wrecking them or soft retreating to your 2nd section, you come to the forums to ask for a sections buff.