Heavy Tank CP

Imo we see Axis or OKW, since Wehr is unused, in WC19, 'stalling' for Tiger. It is only unit to provide decent AT and good AI.

It is probably cheaper to go Tiger instead of P4 and P5. Undoubtably more so for Wehr teching.

Luch - Puma - Tiger and maybe back tech to P4.

This hightlighs Axis problem. Panther too cost ineffective as a tank destoryer and needs more micro.

P4 ineffective as AI as compared to Sherman and T34/76. And less useful than T34/85. And it lacks pen.

JP4 simply lacks pen.

So we left with Tiger call in.

I mean, Allies have more cost effective units by design. But over time, their performance have been patched to the point, that is not lacking and compensate for this effecitive costs.

It is simply bad for Axis, quietly but surely.

Heavies really need to be pushed back to at least past 20 minutes, or otherwise need a significant change.

The game going from a LV or two with all the micro and skill those require, to a single heavy that isn't very threatened by anything other than another heavy is poor game design.

In most cases even if you know your opponent is going for a heavy, and you're handily winning, you can't really counter it unless your opponent severely overextends. A well managed heavy can whittle down a pair of AT guns, and a TD over time with a few repair trips mixed in.

Considering that at the current timing most players that opt against a heavy of their own will only be able to field at best two mediums, only one of which will have any window of opportunity to work with, and maybe a pair of AT guns, which are a huge manpower sacrifice and are only marginally helpful, there's no reward to medium vehicle play. The sheer value you get from a heavy, and the timing you get it is just absurd.

The only option is pick the big dumb unit with a big dumb gun and click forward for a few seconds once it's repaired, click backwards once it's low on health, rinse and repeat, instead of doing something interesting like micro 2-3 mediums along with the rest of your army.

To be fair, the heavy call-in is just popularly seen in WC2019, and most offending party is Okw grand offensive.

Imo as said, this is down to force of hand. Okw P4 is good but not good enough late game. Their T4 structure is as bad as Wehr.

We do see more T34 and Sherman for Allies players.
I think Luvnest tried Wehr in game 3 finals against Soviet, and he lost 2 vetted P4 and Tiger while trying unsuccessful to kil IS2.

As a rank 1000+ 2v2, 4v4 my good self. I do go for T3 Ostwind and Wafer before Tiger Ace, as current.

I dont find the call in timings that bad, especially if you play more allies, since you can hard countered better than Axis. It allows flexibility.

Before heavies hit the field armies tend to grow in size. Wipes happen if you position well, or a player makes a mistake, but none of the units prior to heavies really have a damage output greater than the manpower income.

Heavies will do more manpower damage than the income can keep up with. They whittle the other player's army down faster than they can rebuild. At the current timing the game goes from buildup to dwindling during the end of the LV phase.

There's no medium vehicle phase to show off the greater skill level as in previous metas, and heavies really don't require any skill beyond prudently knowing when to back-off your omni destroy everything vehicle.

If be content with heavies being later BUT their pop being reduced so you are not so heavily penalized for having a medium tank phase. They need to be designed to be part of your army, not the bulk of it.

The tourney was interesting in regards to heavies. There were a lot of Grand Offensive Tigers used, but it's only logical that players will almost exclusively go for the strongest/most reliable strategy when there's a 10k price on the line. The strat got very predictable though, and we saw how a fast SU-85 countered the Tiger rush very well. One other observation is that the OKW Tiger seemed to be a mandatory response to the IS-2 when facing Soviets, as there wasn't much else that could reliably counter it.

So in conclusion, I would still stand by my original opinion that the current timing is fine globally speaking (perhaps it could be 10CPs), as the strats are mostly predictable and players are starting to get used to countering them (as seen in the finals), and only minor adjustments are needed. I'd look at a slight armor reduction for the IS-2 (because Axis severely lack high penetration) to ~340 and/or a small cost increase; a cost increase for the Pershing, and probably a deployment cost increase for Ostheer's Tiger (to T4) and Tiger Ace (to Tiger II cost). OKW Tiger is hard to make adjustments to beyond moving it to 10 or so CPs, as it's already behind quite expensive tech.

True, it always has to be considered if a unit's always being used because it's very powerful or if a unit's always being used because it's forced.

Wouldn't putting the Ostheer Tiger in Ostheer T4 is likely to create more heavy rushes rather than fewer?, Needing to tech T4 disincentivises teching T3. I'd be more inclined to make Ostheer tech both.

The OKW Tiger's delayable by giving it the same unlock condition as the King Tiger: all three structures. That seems appropriate for its hefty advantage over the Panther. The IS-2 is a difficult puppy: I'd be more inclined to let it keep its high armour but whack up its price to KT levels.

OKW's P4 comes very late compared to mediums of other factions.

OKW Tiger comes around same time as heavies of other factions.

IMO this is the reason most people go meta offensive.

The tourney was interesting in regards to heavies. There were a lot of Grand Offensive Tigers used, but it's only logical that players will almost exclusively go for the strongest/most reliable strategy when there's a 10k price on the line. The strat got very predictable though, and we saw how a fast SU-85 countered the Tiger rush very well. One other observation is that the OKW Tiger seemed a mandatory response to the IS-2 when facing Soviets, as there wasn't much else that could reliably counter it.

So in conclusion, I would still stand by my original opinion that the current timing is fine globally speaking (perhaps it could be 10CPs), and only minor adjustments are needed. I'd look at a slight armor reduction for the IS-2 (because Axis severely lack high penetration) and/or a small cost increase; a cost increase for the Pershing, and probably a deployment cost increase for Ostheer's Tiger (to T4) and Tiger Ace (to Tiger II cost). OKW Tiger is hard to make adjustments to beyond moving it to 10 or so CPs.

In the finals Noggano refused to build JP4 to counter the SU-85 (he built a P4 which was countered by the same SU-85...), Luvnest did build a JP4 to counter the SU-85 and keep T34s at bay. It was working well until Luvnest got really unlucky with the T34/76 suicide diving and finishing off the JP4 penning it frontally few times in a row under AT overwatch fire. In other words, Noggano didn't counter the SU-85 and SU-85 continued to punish him. On the other hand Luvnest didn't prioritize VPs early on so in every game Noggano had 250VP lead within first 15 minutes. This lead to insufficient reserves of VPs, so that when Luvnest's JP4 was lost, he had not enough time to build a new one and regain VP control.

Panther can counter IS2 due to good pen, range, mobility and accuracy advantage. There is also a very powerful HEAT round ability in one of the OKW commanders that is a blessing when fighting vehicles like IS2 so there were definitely some other doctrines/options to counter enemy heavy tank play.

I agree with 90% of what was said before in the thread by porkloin, elchino, Vipper, Lago etc. I believe the heavy tank play has become too much of a meta and I don't think it's due to the timing necessarily, but due to how these tanks almost never miss infantry and how effective they are at bleeding and killing everything, AT guns included. Only TDs or other heavies reliably damage each other. If you don't want to nerf AOE or scatter, I believe the ROF needs to go down by 20%, otherwise heavy tanks will just remain the unhealthy and boring meta of microing 1 vehicle.

The teching gap with mediums is something of an issue. Why blow 185 FU on a Panther when 45 FU of patience upgrades that to a Tiger?

The Panzer IV/Panther tradeoff in OKW works well because the Panther is substantially worse against infantry. That doesn't work as well going Panther to Tiger.

The teching gap with mediums is something of an issue. Why blow 185 FU on a Panther when 45 FU of patience upgrades that to a Tiger?

The Panzer IV/Panther tradeoff in OKW works well because the Panther is substantially worse against infantry. That doesn't work as well going Panther to Tiger.

I agree 100%. I was just replying to why I think OKW Tiger was not the only solution to enemy IS2. Tiger is ten times better than Panther when it comes to AI so it is a better investment overall, however when we're speaking about countering IS2, Tiger is not much better of AT tool than Panther. Tiger has a bit of ROF advantage and is just more universal with Panther being more mobile, having vet0 range advantage and marginally higher pen.

The tourney was interesting in regards to heavies. There were a lot of Grand Offensive Tigers used, but it's only logical that players will almost exclusively go for the strongest/most reliable strategy when there's a 10k price on the line. The strat got very predictable though, and we saw how a fast SU-85 countered the Tiger rush very well. One other observation is that the OKW Tiger seemed to be a mandatory response to the IS-2 when facing Soviets, as there wasn't much else that could reliably counter it.

Very interesting indeed, it just demonstrate that Special op was replace by grand offensive.

That just show how broken SU-85 becomes once vetted with high base stats and crazy vet bonuses.

So in conclusion, I would still stand by my original opinion that the current timing is fine globally speaking (perhaps it could be 10CPs), as the strats are mostly predictable and players are starting to get used to countering them (as seen in the finals), and only minor adjustments are needed. I'd look at a slight armor reduction for the IS-2 (because Axis severely lack high penetration) to ~340 and/or a small cost increase; a cost increase for the Pershing, and probably a deployment cost increase for Ostheer's Tiger (to T4) and Tiger Ace (to Tiger II cost). OKW Tiger is hard to make adjustments to beyond moving it to 10 or so CPs, as it's already behind quite expensive tech.

If you conclusion is that everything is fine I am not sure why you guys even bother revamping commanders. Either the game will play only with Super heavy commanders or the Super heavies will have be move to stock....

I agree 100%. I was just replying to why I think OKW Tiger was not the only solution to enemy IS2. Tiger is ten times better than Panther when it comes to AI so it is a better investment overall, however when we're speaking about countering IS2, Tiger is not much better of AT tool than Panther. Tiger has a bit of ROF advantage and is just more universal with Panther being more mobile, having vet0 range advantage and marginally higher pen.

I'm not sure the Panther does counter the IS-2.

If you build a Puma to counter a T-70, the Puma's probably going to kill the T-70. It doesn't matter that the Puma's got barely any anti-infantry power because the smoking husk that used to be a T-70 has none.

A Panther can stand up to an IS-2 but it doesn't reliably kill it. You get the same standoff as you get with IS-2 and Tiger, except the Panther isn't obliterating models at the same time.

By contrast, the Tiger can hold off the IS-2 and keep pace with it in manpower bleed.

Tiger has a bit of ROF advantage and is just more universal with Panther being more mobile, having vet0 range advantage and marginally higher pen.

The Panther can hold back the IS-2 decently, but it doesn't counter it as well as Allied TDs counter a Tiger because of lower penetration, lower range, lower ROF and higher cost. Once the IS-2 gets 50 range at vet 2, the Panther struggles quite hard.

When it comes to AT however, the Tiger is a much more reliable matchup to the IS-2, because it has similar penetration, but significantly higher DPM, has higher armor and health to tank return fire, and isn't too far behind on mobility.

At a max range engagement, The Tiger has a significantly lower TTK versus the IS-2 (~47,25s) than the Panther (~59,85s) while also being much more durable. Speed isn't very relevant here as both are faster than the IS-2 (and flanking to get rear armor hits is nearly impossible anyway). The only real advantage the Panther has is a small 10 range advantage, which is nullified by the Tiger's or IS-2's vet 2. The Tiger also has an easier time scaling alongside the IS-2 because of better veterancy.

Then, as Lago said, there is also the fact that the IS-2 can do both heavy AT and heavy AI duties, so it's way more cost effective to go for a Tiger that can do the same, as opposed to having to get a Panther and a Panzer IV (for 870mp and 325 fuel) to keep up with the IS-2's damage output. A faction like the Soviets has an easier time matching a Tiger I's damage output without a heavy of their own, as an SU-85 and a T-34 would only cost 220-280 fuel.


Reducing the IS-2's armor slightly would bump the TTK of Panthers and Jagdpanzer IVs and ATGs to something more acceptable, and a cost increase on the IS-2 would make the Panther a more cost effective choice. I think both would go a long way to make the Tiger I a less mandatory response to the IS-2.

I'm not sure the Panther does counter the IS-2.

If you build a Puma to counter a T-70, the Puma's probably going to kill the T-70. It doesn't matter that the Puma's got barely any anti-infantry power because the smoking husk that used to be a T-70 has none.

A Panther can stand up to an IS-2 but it doesn't reliably kill it. You get the same standoff as you get with IS-2 and Tiger, except the Panther isn't obliterating models at the same time.

By contrast, the Tiger can hold off the IS-2 and keep pace with it in manpower bleed.

I don't think you fully grasped what I wanted to say. I don't think Tiger is that much better than Panther at fighting IS2 that what Sander said was true: "One other observation is that the OKW Tiger seemed to be a mandatory response to the IS-2 when facing Soviets, as there wasn't much else that could reliably counter it". On the other hand I do think that Tiger is significantly better tool than Panther due to its AI capabilities. I was just mentioning that AT wise it was not a mandatory response in my opinion and one could maintain the doctrine flexibility and not lock into Tiger due to enemy IS2 presence.

Imho, Heavy tanks are too good atm. With the ease of micro, the great firepower and the survivability of the unit in a game about unit preservation, the heavy tanks as they are are too rewarding.

The Panther can hold back the IS-2 decently, but it doesn't counter it as well as Allied TDs counter a Tiger because of lower penetration, lower range, lower ROF and higher cost. Once the IS-2 gets 50 range at vet 2, the Panther struggles quite hard.

When it comes to AT however, the Tiger is a much more reliable matchup to the IS-2, because it has similar penetration, but significantly higher DPM, has higher armor and health to tank return fire, and isn't too far behind on mobility.

At a max range engagement, The Tiger has a significantly lower TTK versus the IS-2 (~47,25s) than the Panther (~59,85s) while also being much more durable. Speed isn't very relevant here as both are faster than the IS-2 (and flanking to get rear armor hits is nearly impossible anyway).

Thank you for clarification. While I agree that Tiger would be better because ROF difference offsets the marginal penetration delta, the initial 10 range advantage of Panther over IS2 makes it easier during the early part of the IS2 presence to damage it enough to discourage IS2 from advancing. While TTK is useful when you consider an engagement between units of the same range and mobility, I don't think that it is fair to compare Panther and Tiger based on TTK as the vehicles initially take time to vet and in this time Panther can engage IS2 without putting itself in the harm's way. Even after IS2 vets, the far accuracy of IS2 is significantly worse than that of Panther. But based on your message, I see how much better Tiger would scale than a Panther in this scenario.

I believe that picking the commander with HEAT rounds would have higher impact vs IS2 than building a Tiger, especially that JP4 that could be built to fight the enemy TD could also be made useful to fight IS2 with the HEAT round ability. Having the scope of AT covered, P4/Obers would have to do the bulk of the AI work.

Make it more tempting to get a P4 with OKW's teching. Something like:

- Schwerer costs 100 fuel, has Obers, JP4 and 120 fuel Ostheer P4.
- Panzer Authorization costs 20 fuel, allows P4 to upgrade skirt + scatter for 20 fuel. Also unlocks Panther, doctrinal heavies, LMG upgrade for Obers, as usual.

Now it's more tempting to get a medium out as OKW over the Tiger, because timing is more in line with other factions. As this is a straight up timing buff, you could probably nerf some other aspect of the faction.

Make it more tempting to get a P4 with OKW's teching. Something like:

- Schwerer costs 100 fuel, has Obers, JP4 and 120 fuel Ostheer P4.
- Panzer Authorization costs 20 fuel, allows OST P4 to get a skirt + scatter upgrade for 20 fuel.

Everything else stays the same. Now it's more tempting to get a medium out as OKW over the Tiger, because timing is more in line with other factions. As this is a straight up timing buff, you could probably nerf some other aspect of the faction.

The basic problems would remain:

1) The cost efficiency of super heavies combined with their timing, units that PzIV can not reliably penetrate even if it manages to flank.

2) The effectiveness of 60 range TDs to counter mediums even at max range. A probability of (nearly) 100% to do damage to medium at max range goes against both basic game mechanics, armor/accuracy.

In the current state mediums have little place since they can easily become obsolete.

The problems would remain:

1) The cost efficiency of super heavies combined with their timing, units that PzIV can not reliably penetrate even if it manages to flank.

2) The effectiveness of 60 range TDs to counter mediums even at max range. A probability of (nearly) 100% to do damage to medium at max range goes against both basic game mechanics, armor/accuracy.

In the current state mediums have little place.

It would definitely help though, a heavy wouldn't show up ~3 minutes after your P4, but more like ~5 minutes. Gives allot more time for your medium to make an impact.

Could also decide to get a JP4 after your P4 instead of going for panzer authorization, to save some fuel and provide solid tank force against heavies. Something that's very expensive to do currently.

This suggestion is purely for OKW, who has the latest timing on its medium, almost forcing you to get a heavy unless you're ahead.

It would definitely help though, a heavy wouldn't show up ~3 minutes after your P4, but more like ~5 minutes. Gives allot more time for your medium to make an impact.

Could also decide to get a JP4 after your P4 instead of going for panzer authorization, to save some fuel and provide solid tank force against heavies. Something that's very expensive to do currently.

This suggestion is purely for OKW, who has the latest timing on its medium, almost forcing you to get a heavy unless you're ahead.

It would help much as band aid.

The problems are:
Super heavy timing/efficiency
TDs efficiency at range 60

The fact that during the tournament the majority of games involved at least doctrinal 1 Super heavy should be a clear indication that these unit over-perform and the problem of "stalling" for super heavy that the previews patch aim to solve, has become even worse since it not even "stalling" now.