6 changes to improve Wehrmacht commanders thematically

Festung commander is awesome when the enemy camps hard.

Mortar halftrack + lefh oh yeah

I'd definitely add crit repairs for pios stock after battlephase 2 or 3, for example.

HI Sander,
appreciate your open words even if i disagree with this judgement. Would be nice if you you could comment the suggested changes to Festung Support / Mechanized and write which wehr doctrines should be reworked in your opinion.
THX in advance!

In regards to Festung Support, an FHQ might cause issues because of Ostheer's strong support weapons play. It'd make them extremely hard to dislodge. Also, FHQ as it is currently is quite bad for gameplay imo (OKW has nothing to kill buildings effectively) and I wouldn't want to spread that to more commanders (USF and UKF wouldn't have anything to kill buildings either). It could perhaps use a version of the "Forward Supply Station" (pictured below) that doesn't reinforce, but instead could cast abilities like the UKF Forward Observation Post.


And standardize the smoke plane to 2CP.


Mechanized, replacing one of the abilities with Emergency Repairs sounds good and thematic.
I would probably actually add a "Combined Arms"-like ability to emphasize the mechanized theme, and to avoid causing too much faction overlap by adding a Luchs.


It's quite hard to make something of these forgotten Ostheer commanders, especially because of the vast amount of thematic overlap because of Relic going overboard with the DLC. Festung Support and Defensive are basically similar, as are Mechanized and Mechanized Assault. There are basically 4(!) offensively themed commanders with Blitzkrieg, Lightning War, Storm and Spearhead. At this point, it might be best to consider to leave some of these commanders lying in the dust and focus on improving the ones that are thematically much more interesting, like Luftwafe and Mobile Defense.

In regards to Festung Support, an FHQ might cause issues because of Ostheer's strong support weapons play. It'd make them extremely hard to dislodge. Also, FHQ as it is currently is quite bad for gameplay imo (OKW has nothing to kill buildings effectively) and I wouldn't want to spread that to more commanders (USF and UKF wouldn't have anything to kill buildings either). It could perhaps use a version of the "Forward Supply Station" (pictured below) that doesn't reinforce, but instead could cast abilities like the UKF Forward Observation Post.


And standardize the smoke plane to 2CP.


Mechanized, replacing one of the abilities with Emergency Repairs sounds good and thematic.
I would probably actually add a "Combined Arms"-like ability to emphasize the mechanized theme, and to avoid causing too much faction overlap by adding a Luchs.


It's quite hard to make something of these forgotten Ostheer commanders, especially because of the vast amount of thematic overlap because of Relic going overboard with the DLC. Festung Support and Defensive are basically similar, as are Mechanized and Mechanized Assault. There are basically 4(!) offensively themed commanders with Blitzkrieg, Lightning War, Storm and Spearhead. At this point, it might be best to consider to leave some of these commanders lying in the dust and focus on improving the ones that are thematically much more interesting, like Luftwafe and Mobile Defense.

Why was the FHQ for the Soviets even revamped then instead of replaced altogether?

Cause the Forward Supply Station for Ostheer is exactly what the Army needs, more repair options and a forward retreat point because they severely lack in the repair option department as well as being the ONLY Army without a forward retreat point, for some stupid reason. It just needs to be balanced properly like for example limiting the repair pioneers to only 4.

In my opinion the Forward Supply Station has enough of a unique forward retreat system (ability based) and practicality (repair pioneers) in order to be implemented officially into the game.

It would also be pretty simple to make as an upgrade or part of the command bunker upgrade as well, just make the upgrade more expensive or add an additional cost instead of it just being 60 ammo like it is right now and be done with it.

No need to do mental gymnastics like for the Soviets thinking of new and unique ways of how to fix FHQ because there's simply nothing to fix.

Ostheer is a good concept on paper, probably the best designed Army in the game right now, just the execution like most other things in the game, is poor, sadly. One example I can give is the Grenadiers, which are more and more consistently being replaced by Osttruppen and Assault Grenadiers.

If it wasn't so the doctrines with those units would not be as popular as they are right now.

All I want from that Urban Assault Commander are the Flamer Panzergrenadiers. Give them to me now.

Also I claim bias if OKW gets the Tiger I but WM doesn't get the Tiger II

Could make Luftwaffe Supply a more defensively oriented air support doctrine:

1 CP - Entrenching Tools, so trenches, sandbags, wires for infantry.
2 CP - Luftwaffe Officer. 5 men squad with 2 FG42's and stuff like med crate drop, smoke bombs at vet 1, stuka dive bomb once T4 tech is researched.
3 CP - Supply Drop from Osttruppen doctrine, instead of the current Supply Drop, to cut down on cheesiness factor. Make it more tempting by replacing MG34 with MG42.
4 CP - Recon Overflight.
6 CP - Incendiary bombing run, buffed to be viable

And Close Air Support a more offensively oriented air support doctrine:

0 CP - Counterattack Tactics from Mobile Defense, reworked to be similar to USF's raid tactics (more sight for infantry, vehicles can cap).
0 CP - 221/223 buildable from HQ after T2 tech with slightly different abilities. Can place Schumine instead of med crate and unlocks Recon Loiter at vet 3.
6 CP - AI strafe.
10 CP - AT strafe, buffed to be viable.
12 CP - Stuka Dive Bomb. Butterfly Bombs could also be an option.

Just some ideas.

Imo the Forward supply station has the best designed forward retreat point. ?It allow a single unit to retreat there with global CD...

Mechanized, replacing one of the abilities with Emergency Repairs sounds good and thematic.
I would probably actually add a "Combined Arms"-like ability to emphasize the mechanized theme, and to avoid causing too much faction overlap by adding a Luchs.

At this point, it might be best to consider to leave some of these commanders lying in the dust and focus on improving the ones that are thematically much more interesting, like Luftwafe and Mobile Defense.

HI Sander,
thx for your extensive post which i really appreciate.

About Mechanized:
Adding Emergency repairs and an "Combined Arms"-like ability would make Mechanized a lot more interesting because both would be unique abilities for the faction.


About possible rework candidates:
I think Mobile Defense and one of the Luftwaffe commanders would be really good choices. Both would give the mod team enough room to create interesting commanders.


About avoiding unit overlap:
I think most players agree with this argument - so do i. This leads me to the question of
all questions: Wouldnt it be better to replace the Puma in Mobile Defense? The unit causes so many balancing problems (nobody wants the panic puma meta back) that the removal should be an option imo.

Could make Luftwaffe Supply a more defensively oriented air support doctrine:

1 CP - Entrenching Tools, so trenches, sandbags, wires for infantry.
2 CP - Luftwaffe Officer. 5 men squad with 4 Kars and 1 FG42 and stuff like healing aura, can build sandbags and stuka recon once T4 tech is researched.
3 CP - Supply Drop from Osttruppen doctrine
5 CP - Command Panzer IV
10 CP - Stuka AT strafe

And Close Air Support a more offensively oriented air support doctrine:

0 CP - Flak HT from OKW T2, available from Leichte Mechanized HQ.
3 CP - Recon Overflight
5 CP - Tactical Movement
10 CP - Stuka AT strafe
12 CP - Stuka Dive Bomb.

Just some ideas.

Looks much better now imo.

Looks much better now imo.

I would love to see the "Tank commander" upgrade in Luftwaffe supply instead of the Commando P4.
Tank commander could provide an Stuka strafe instead of the arty barrage. It would mirror the close collaboration between the spearhead of the german tank divisions and the Luftwaffe.

CAS/Luft could have access to:
Officer with bonuses to vehicles/repair speeds [Ostheer officers could split to artillery/infatry/mechanized/luft (luft/mech could be one)].

Airdropped fallj modeled after USF paras

Repair station, upgrade to ambient building/structure

Engineer with 5-6 models unit for faster repairs (maybe access to 20mm AA)

SWS truck as emplacements not production buildings.

Looks much better now imo.

I was trying not to remove any abilities like the incendiary bombing strike and airdropped med kits, but it kinda turned into a mess. I'd like to keep them because of their unique voicelines and assets and such, but it would likely mean removing some other useful abilities, like stuka dive bomb.

Opted not to choose Flak HT, because it would be overly strong with Ostheer's support options. 221/223 would however be a cool alternative vehicle if you opt to skip T2, similar to the 250 in Infantry Doctrine.

Here's version 2 3 4:

Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine
Show Spoiler
Meant as a defensively-oriented Luftwaffe doctrine with slight Operation Uranus theme.

Close Air Support
Show Spoiler
Meant as an offensively-oriented Luftwaffe doctrine.

A problem with designing these luftwaffe-focused commanders is that they quickly turn too muni intensive. Their original design of course bandaged this with the imo badly designed supply drops. This is why I replaced some abilities on Luftwaffe Support with abilities that are free or cost manpower/fuel. The munition abilities on CAS are cheap and you can get more munitions by using the reworked Counterattack Tactics and the 223 well.

Too strong? Too much overlap? Too cluttered? Need more uniqueness?
Please let me know.

Here's version 2:

Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine
Show Spoiler

Hi DerbyHat,
nice to see that Luftwaffe has some believers. Some feedback on Luftwaffe supply: I like your design, just 2 things that i would change:

Entrenching Tools:
I would also add flak emplacements which would be available at 2cp.

Command Panzer 4:
I know that you try to avoid a commander design that is too munition heavy but the commando panzer 4 is neither an attractive unit (too many other commanders also have it) nor an fitting one. I would probably come back to the 221/223 idea which i like a lot.
The unit fits to the theme (kind of) because it can be used for farming resources. Maybe the mod team could change the Wehrmacht version to a more combat oriented version with better dps on the mg.

Entrenching Tools:
I would also add flak emplacements which would be available at 2cp.

I'd like to add it, but didn't want too many abilities in the same doctrine. If Command Panzer gets replaced with something weaker it might be an option though.

Command Panzer 4:
I know that you try to avoid a commander design that is too munition heavy but the commando panzer 4 is neither an attractive unit (too many other commanders also have it) nor an fitting one. I would probably come back to the 221/223 idea which i like a lot.
The unit fits to the theme (kind of) because it can be used for farming resources. Maybe the mod team could change the Wehrmacht version to a more combat oriented version with better dps on the mg.

I've thought about it, but concluded the resource gain of the 223 (or Opel cargo truck) combined with the supply drop, that gives 10 fuel and an AT gun, would likely be too potent if going straight for T3.

Here are some alternative ideas for CP4 slot, let me know which one you like, if any:

- ? CP turn ambient building into repair and reinforce FHQ
Would help Ostheer allot with holding ground and repairing vehicles.

- 2 CP Osttruppen Reserves reworked into AT-rifle Osttruppen
Personal favorite. Would give doctrine a bit of an Operation Uranus theme, with infantry being entrenched, Luftwaffe as lifeline and Osttruppen holding the flanks. Would also help Mobile Defense and would finally allow the Panzerbüchse to be seen.

- 5 CP Hull Down
Probably makes the doctrine too defensive and static and people don't use the ability anyway. The option is there though.

- 2 CP Mortar Halftrack
Doesn't really fit the theme, but it's a nice supportive unit that isn't seen that often.

Derby, could including panzerbuechsen into the weapon drop maybe be an option? In this case the drop could come earlier and deliver 1 mg42 and 2 panzerbuechsen, fuel and munition. What do you think?

Edut: i really like the idea of using operation uranus as a theme for this commander. you could also include the munition blitz ability from the not relessed urban assault commander for luftwaffe supply. In this case the mun blitz would come via azr transport.

CAS/Luft could have access to:
Officer with bonuses to vehicles/repair speeds [Ostheer officers could split to artillery/infatry/mechanized/luft (luft/mech could be one)].

Airdropped fallj modeled after USF paras

Repair station, upgrade to ambient building/structure

Engineer with 5-6 models unit for faster repairs (maybe access to 20mm AA)

SWS truck as emplacements not production buildings.

I'm not sure if you've seen my concepts for reworks of the OKW and Ost Luftwaffe doctrines but either way here they are:





They look pretty similar to what you're suggesting.

But yeah definitely a Luftwaffe ground forces sort of unit using the Ostheer Artillery crew models could work. 5 man squad that can build and be semi-effective in combat at long range thanks to their rifles.

Another thing I thought about was maybe giving them access to the OKW's Flak HT? Possibilities are (almost) endless and pretty interesting.

I'm not sure if you've seen my concepts for reworks of the OKW and Ost Luftwaffe doctrines but either way here they are:





They look pretty similar to what you're suggesting.

But yeah definitely a Luftwaffe ground forces sort of unit using the Ostheer Artillery crew models could work. 5 man squad that can build and be semi-effective in combat at long range thanks to their rifles.

Another thing I thought about was maybe giving them access to the OKW's Flak HT? Possibilities are (almost) endless and pretty interesting.

Love these. Do you plan on making a Mobile Defense concept?

Love these. Do you plan on making a Mobile Defense concept?

I cant offer the amazing commander portraits like A.soldier but i can offer an concept for mobil defense. The design idea is easy: giving you plenty of mobility and help in the first 1ü min but not much after that.

1. 250 from german infantry
2. Counter tactics
3. Panzer tactian
4. Osttrupen at unit, armed wit at rifles, can be upgraded to get at satchel (1CP)
5. Puma, t2 buildind and 5cp needed

...Another thing I thought about was maybe giving them access to the OKW's Flak HT? Possibilities are (almost) endless and pretty interesting.

Great work.

Having that said I would rather have Luftwaffe support with more support abilities and less offensive abilities. In other word more Repair/engineer options. Offensive option are better suited for CAS imo.

The Flak HT is very expensive for Ostheer, they already have a great MG and great AI. That is why I suggested the SWS truck.

That looks like the Luftwaffe Doctrine from the vCoH's Panzer Elite.