Jagdpanzer IV Refit

As Viper said jagpanzer is ok just panther need nerf but if u ask me i guess best for jagpanzer will be panther in doctrin

I say the disparity in pen is more than accuracy. I mean 0.072 is pretty damn high already. Higher than panthers.
Sure allies needed pen, sure axis dont need that much pen..but these are old conventions imo. As started in my other thread, about allies do have armor values which are also high... Higher than what's expected with doctrine counters.

what? the highest armor values of allied tanks belong to the russian heavy tanks.... axis superheavies like the JT/ELE/KT get even higher armor than the IS-2/ISU...

Thats the thing, allies seem to have access to stronger late game. And we are talking about jp4 okw, which are both superior to wehr arsenal's!

youre completely full of crap arent you mrgame2?

JP4 has a number of issues:
High price
High pop
Low rotation speed

so does the SU-85

Low penetration

because it has high armor

high frontal armor low rear

its rear armor is the same as every other heavy TD... this is mostly irrelevant aswell

problematic vet bonuses

it gets cloaking and first strike as a vet bonus... that isnt "problematic"

One first has to decide what the role of this unit is:
If it a counter to mediums it need lower cost and pop
If it is a counter to enemy 60 Tds it needs lower cost pop
If it a counter to enemy heavies/super heavies it need more penetration

In any way it need a veterancy overhaul.

the OP`s suggestion is quite good enough to give it the 3rd role...
the 2nd role is bad since the allies would have to contend with the panther AND the JP4
the 1st role it already fills quite nicely.... but is also quite a niche...

so does the SU-85


because it has high armor


its rear armor is the same as every other heavy TD... this is mostly irrelevant aswell



it gets cloaking and first strike as a vet bonus... that isnt "problematic"



the OP`s suggestion is quite good enough to give it the 3rd role...
the 2nd role is bad since the allies would have to contend with the panther AND the JP4
the 1st role it already fills quite nicely.... but is also quite a niche...

no it doesn't are blind he literally posted the stats su 85 cost less and has better rotation, i know allied bias can change patch notes but this is too much


vet 5 is trash when other tanks get same bonus but for all shoots not only the first

so do u agree with OP or not ?

Vet 5 for the JP4 was definitely over nerfed. I'd bump it up to at least 50%

Vet 5 for the JP4 was definitely over nerfed. I'd bump it up to at least 50%

Instead of making vet 5 better, it’s better to slightly lower vet requirements.

Instead of making vet 5 better, it’s better to slightly lower vet requirements.

I could get behind that.
@vipper how does the vet requirements stack up against other TDs?

no it doesn't are blind he literally posted the stats su 85 cost less

it costs 5 less fuel...

and has better rotation,

both the SU-85 and jagdpanzer 4 have trash rotation rates though the SU-85 has better rotation rates...

vet 5 is trash when other tanks get same bonus but for all shoots not only the first

the SU-85s main vet bonus is penetration... the JP4 gets camo + first strike... both are pretty good

so do u agree with OP or not ?

i agree that the jagdpanzer 4 deserves a buff... its too much of a niche unit to be good sadly....
but the way vipper portrays it is that it is somehow some weak unit in need of alot of help....
it doesnt...

but does deserve some sort help... imo the JP4 should have an option to at least increase its penetration in exchange for DPS to allow it to engage heavy tanks more effectively... thus preventing it from being a niche unit for killing medium swarms and scaring TDs...

imo i would have gone for the free upgrade with +80 or so penetration and -20% DPS... but switchable shell types are also a good idea aswell

so does the SU-85

Ok lets compare the JP 4 and SU-85 at vet 0
JP vs SU-84
Show Spoiler
So basically you are paying 50 mp and 5 fuel more for a unit that inferior to everything accept:

+11% mid accuracy
-12% faster reload
+64% frontal armor
+14% rear armor
5.6% target size

In other words one pays more than the price for a heavy counter, for a slightly better medium counter and a allot worse heavy counter.

because it has high armor

Pls stop coming up with BS theories as another user does. There is little correlation between a units armor and Penetration.

its rear armor is the same as every other heavy TD... this is mostly irrelevant aswell

Only it is not a heavy TD because it lack penetration. It is quite relevant because the main thing this unit has is frontal armor that over only the half front of the vehicle. Combined with low rotation and no side vision the unit can easily be flanked and lose the only advantage it actually has.

it gets cloaking and first strike as a vet bonus... that isnt "problematic"

Yes it is. I have provided the stat to prove that most TDs including SU-85 become better at their job at vet 3.

Only in the last time it was pacthed it lost the following veterancy bonuses:
+10% armour
+35% sight range
+125% damage from first strike
+125% accuracy from first strike
+125% penetration from first strike

Only to gain 20% accuracy when SU-85 get 30% accuracy at the same level.
The first strike bonus has extremely low impact, it is only probably in 4vs4 and even it has light impact since it does not change the number of shot in most cases.

the OP`s suggestion is quite good enough to give it the 3rd role...
the 2nd role is bad since the allies would have to contend with the panther AND the JP4
the 1st role it already fills quite nicely.... but is also quite a niche...

Not at price of 500/175

It already act as a counter to allied TDs but not cost efficiently since dedicated counter are usually cheaper and with less pop. There reason it does is bacsause OKW do not have a 60 range ATG.

It already act as a counter to allied meduims but not cost efficiently since dedicated counter are usually cheaper and with less pop.

....
but the way vipper portrays it is that it is somehow some weak unit in need of alot of help....
it doesnt...

PLS do not put words in my mouth. I did not portrayed anything I simply provided stats with little comments and pointed out that the unit need a clear role and the tools to fulfill that role.

I have clearly said that the unit is simply not cost efficient in its current role of medium/TD counter.

Quite frankly I am getting tired of people accusing of miss presentation when a simply provide stats.

PLS do not put words in my mouth. I did not portrayed anything I simply provided stats with little comments.

I have clearly said that the unit is simply not cost efficient in its current role of medium/TD counter.

I think compare 2 units in raw digits, not the wisest decision, if we forget about what kind of targets it usually aim.
In SU stock armor roster, the highest armor have t-34/76 (150).
In OKW it's KT(375).
How are you would fight against stock heavy with low penetration? In theme about penetration we must compare not raw values of penetration, but chance to penetrate. In ally stock units, only churchill have high armor. In Axis are KT and Panther.

Ok lets compare the JP 4 and SU-85 at vet 0
JP vs SU-84
Show Spoiler

So basically you are paying 50 mp and 5 fuel more for a unit that inferior to everything accept:

+11% mid accuracy
-12% faster reload
+64% frontal armor
+14% rear armor
5.6% target size

In other words one pays more than the price for a heavy counter for medium slightly better medium counter.

youre leaving out the pros of the SU-85 and forgetting to draw a comparison

JP4
+11% mid accuracy
-12% faster reload
+64% frontal armor
+14% rear armor
5.6% target size
SU-85
20.7% more (average) penetration
3.6% higher speed
10.52% higher acceleration
10% higher rotation rate
3.8% lower fuel cost
14.28% lower manpower cost

overall the JP4 has higher quality advantages while the SU-85 has more advantages... id say theyre roughly comparable

of course the main problem of the JP4 is its niche role as anti medium and a TD frightener... hence why i am in support of the new "high penetration low DPS" round type...

Pls stop coming up with BS theories as another user does. There is no correlation between a units armor and Penetration.

its called assymetric balance... you cant have your cake and eat it too

Only it is not a heavy TD because it lack penetration. It is quite relevant because the main thing this unit has is frontal armor that over only the half front of the vehicle. Combined with low rotation and no side vision the unit can easily be flanked and lose the only advantage it actually has.

hence why im fine with switchable round types? this would at least retain its role as anti medium with an option to switch to anti heavy round types in exchange for lower DPS vs mediums

an outright penetration buff would simply be over the top and make the JP4 outclass all the heavy TDs just because its axis...

Yes it is I have provided the stat to prove that most TDs including SU-85 become better at their job at vet 3.

The first strike bonus has extremely low impact, it is only probably in 4vs4 and even it has light impact since it does not change the number of shot in most cases.

Not at price of 500/175

correct me if im wrong... but wasnt the suggestion to add a 60 munitions upgrade for higher pen/lower DPS?

It already act as a counter to allied TDs but not cost efficiently since dedicated counter are usually cheaper and with less pop. There reason it does is bacsause OKW do not have a 60 range ATG.

its not meant to hard counter allied TDs.... its meant to scare them away...

It already act as a counter to allied meduims but not cost efficiently since dedicated counter are usually cheaper and with less pop.

it counters medium armor quite effectively... but it isnt the best at its job... hence why i wish to expand its capacity to counter heavy armor aswell with "high penetration low DPS" modes... whether a switchable round or free (permanent) upgrade is up for debate

If the allies go mediums or TD's then the JD4 is a solid pick and can perform very well.

It only struggles against heavy armour of which there isn't a vast amount. Even then it will still deal damage but not with the reliability of the more expensive panther.

@vipper how does the vet requirements stack up against other TDs?

Jagdpanzer IV

2150/4300/8600/10750/14298

SU-85

1790/3580/7160

Jackson

2160/4320/8640

Firefly

2160/4320/8640

I think compare 2 units in raw digits, not the wisest decision, if we forget about what kind of targets it usually aim.
In SU stock armor roster, the highest armor have t-34/76 (150).
In OKW it's KT(375).
How are you would fight against stock heavy with low penetration? In theme about penetration we must compare not raw values of penetration, but chance to penetrate. In ally stock units, only churchill have high armor. In Axis are KT and Panther.

Another theory that makes little sense, the "stock" theory hold not water at all.

As I stated SU-85 can counter both mediums and heavies while the more expensive JP4 can counter medium slightly better and heavies allot worse.

Once more do not put words in my mouth in this thread I have not suggested that SU-85 should have lower penetration. What I have clearly demonstrate is that JP4 is less cost efficient than SU-85.

then the suggestion of switchable round types/heavyAP round upgrade fits your objectives @vipper

youre leaving out the pros of the SU-85 and forgetting to draw a comparison
....

overall the JP4 has higher quality advantages while the SU-85 has more advantages... id say theyre roughly comparable

of course the main problem of the JP4 is its niche role as anti medium and a TD frightener... hence why i am in support of the new "high penetration low DPS" round type...

"Higher quality advantage" in your opinion. Point is that JP only slightly better vs meduim and far worse vs heavies.

its called assymetric balance... you cant have your cake and eat it too

Asymmetric balance is completely irrelevant. M-36 has around half the armor of Panther yet is more cost efficient heavy counter. JP4 cost more for frontal armor a value that hardly help it in anything since it out-ranges mediums, can not deflect TDs, and can be flanked easier than SU-85.

hence why im fine with switchable round types? this would at least retain its role as anti medium with an option to switch to anti heavy round types in exchange for lower DPS vs mediums

Good for you, I did not objected the change I have simply objected the price of 500/175 for it.

an outright penetration buff would simply be over the top and make the JP4 outclass all the heavy TDs just because its axis...

Once more do not put words in my mouth I have not suggested that it should get a penetration buff. What I have said is that unit need a role and then it cost pop and stat should be according to that role. Currently the unit is simply not cost efficient as counter to mediums and Tds. And it seems that actually agree with my assessment.

The first strike bonus has extremely low impact, it is only probably in 4vs4 and even it has light impact since it does not change the number of shot in most cases.


correct me if im wrong... but wasnt the suggestion to add a 60 munitions upgrade for higher pen/lower DPS?

Survivability is a good point though. Maybe it'd be worth making the sidegrade cost 100 MP 40 FU instead.

Fuel/MP cost was also suggested.

its not meant to hard counter allied TDs.... its meant to scare them away...

it counters medium armor quite effectively... but it isnt the best at its job... hence why i wish to expand its capacity to counter heavy armor aswell with "high penetration low DPS" modes... whether a switchable round or free (permanent) upgrade is up for debate

And that has been my point all along. Find a role and make cost efficient at it.

At this point I am not even sure in which point you are actually disagreeing with me.

then the suggestion of switchable round types/heavyAP round upgrade fits your objectives @vipper

I have actually suggested switchable rounds for all "heavy" TDs a long time ago (even made a mod) since that would open the way for separate balancing of medium tanks and Super heavy tanks.

The idea is that Super heavies get bigger size.

Then one could have AP rounds with low accuracy, high penetration maybe low ROF high damage vs Super heavies.

And High accuracy low penetration, standard damage, high ROF maybe lower Range vs mediums.

One could also have ROF change with range so that long range units are better balanced.

Jagdpanzer IV


SU-85


Jackson


Firefly

lol 14000 , wtf vet 5 is literally trash

"Higher quality advantage" in your opinion. Point is that JP only slightly better vs meduim and far worse vs heavies.

yeah but an outright penetration buff isnt the way to go...

Asymmetric balance is completely irrelevant. M-36 has around half the armor of Panther yet is more cost efficient heavy counter. JP4 cost more for frontal armor a value that hardly help it in anything since it out-ranges mediums, can not deflect TDs, and can be flanked easier than SU-85.

no but it shoots faster than the SU-85 and has lower target sizes... its advantages cannot be ignored...

Good for you, I did not objected the change I have simply objected the price of 500/175 for it.

the OP didnt mention 500/175 price for the JP4 afaik...

Once more do not put words in my mouth I have not suggested that it should get a penetration buff. What I have said is that unit need a role and then it cost pop and stat should be according to that role. Currently the unit is simply not cost efficient as counter to mediums and Tds. And it seems that actually agree with my assessment.

you did

"If it a counter to enemy heavies/super heavies it need more penetration"

And that has been my point all along. Find a role and make cost efficient at it.

it doesnt have to be cost efficient at a role... since making it cheaper would break the dynamic between allied TDs and axis premium mediums and mediums... instead you can just give it switchable rounds to allow it to engage heavy tanks better to widen its utility without making it the "panther" of heavy tank destroyers