You're not arguing regarding Penal's combat effectiveness at this point, but merely their affordability.
Affordability of unit directly affects its combat effectiveness, because in infantry case, field presence of a unit is quite important, cost and timing influence that effectiveness.
This is why penals are alright unit, but dead as meta one, while PFs are being spammed everywhere above 1v1.
Since you don't start with premade army matching opponents premade army for the pop and cost, but need to field it first, you have to take into account timing, cost and what opponent will have on field as well.
Penals will ALWAYS be outnumbered, they will win 1v1 engagements, but they aren't going to be engaging like that past first 2-3 minutes, because its impossible to field enough of them.
And, again, we've made a full circle, where T-70 comes to the rescue, balancing that out in mid game.
I would like to contest YOU on this. I made a little experiment, duel between Grenadiers and Penals.
Following setups:
5 rounds of combat, both units in heavy cover, no LoF obstructions. Grenadiers all with LMG upgrade.
Long range
Close Combat
This proves you wrong. Actually, the opposite is true. A penal squad beats an upgraded grenadier at both long and close range when both are at vet 2. So I would say that Penals do scale into the mid-game quite well.
Now try the same with LMGs, which grens will have after 3rd minute.
Also, explain to me why you have completely ignored this line:
because penals do NOT offer high firepower outside of early game
Early game means first 5 mins, where you have vet0 unupgraded inf.
If you are using vetted grens in "tests" but not using LMGs or 5 man upgrade, you're doing a biased test that proves nothing and doesn't prove me wrong, because it completely ignores what I've said.
How about a T1 opening supported by the doctrinal dshka, m42 and the 120mm mortar? This would enhance both AI and light AT during the early and mid game.
Ah yes, the trio of overnerfed weapons.
120mm is completely worthless, its much more expensive and LESS effective then T2 mortar.
M-42 is stop gap that works exclusively in urban combat doc, because of shocks doing heavy AI lifting.
DSHKa, while effective, is so expensive that adding it to your BO means you are so badly outnumbered, it becomes irrelevant what it brings.
AT is not the problem of T-70 being mandatory crutch.
AI is.
I am here to be contested, that's the whole point. Post an alternative buildorder to overcome the T70. You are not contesting me, you are just denying my right to discuss things. Give us a possible alternative, if my BO is horrible.
Are you even reading what is being said here?
YOU CAN NOT FIX T-70 ISSUE WITH CHANGE OF BO, BECAUSE ITS CORE INFANTRY ISSUE.
Both, penals AND cons do BAD in mid game for the exact same reasons, lack of sufficient scaling, where T-70 comes for help. If 7th man was unlocked for free at T3, or penals had weapon upgrade we'd have different discussion.
You are not forced to follow or read this thread, nor have I asked you to comment on my ranking. If you are willing to contribute, please do so. If not, keep the thread clean and leave.
I've already said why this is a horrible BO and if anything, it needs T-70 more then any other to salvage the game.
Penals meta BOs also utilized T-70, because penals do NOT offer high firepower outside of early game, regardless of how many times V will remind everyone about their vet accuracy, their rec acc and fact others get proper weapon upgrades mean penals fall short in mid game BADLY compared to all other infantry units, including cons.
If you don't like being constested, don't post on forums?
Please keep in mind that this is not about penals or balance or anything. This is about discussing builds without the T70. This does not mean a mandatory T1 opening, that's just my post. Please feel free to propose alternatives.
I -REALLY- do NOT want to go there, but I don't think you have much credibility when it comes to coming up with meta BOs with your ranks.
Sorry, but soviet early game infantry combat being shit isn't going to be magically fixed by a simply BO change.
not really according to the cruzz chart...
Zis3
Range near
15
Range mid
47.5
Range far
80
Then perhaps you should read couple of posts back, where this also is explained.
Weapon range is 80.
Ability range is 60.
Barrage is not auto-attack, therefore ability range applies.
not really... i use zis barrage to counter blobs and to disloge weapon teams... i can easily do this without walking into the range of a mortar...
Well, that's the risk you're taking then, up to you.
honestly i think mortars are pretty terrible overall...their damage and effect on both squads and weapon systems is soo rare that i generally use mortars only for smoke.... only the LEIG and the pak howie seem like decent weapon systems...
in any case i do agree that the zis is not unbeatable... a stuka zu fuss will ruin its day and so will a panzerwerfer or even an LEIG.... but i also think the the mortar is not a good counter to a zis and i also think the zis may be a bit too strong for its current pricetag...
of course i also agree SOV is currently a terrible faction soo there has to be other changes to compensate for a zis change...
Let me remind you that we've re-established that ZiS got 60 range on barrage, going back to my original point, you ALWAYS outrange it. Always. No excuses.
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