1) If one wants both units to be used they have to adjust both, else only one of the will be built. Each units need to have something to bring to table, a different role or utility and ideally they perform better together. So a defensive conscripts and an offensive Penal seems to be a change to right direction.
2) The target size of conscripts 1.087 while the difference in cost and time is around 25% merge works. I always leave conscript with 2-1 models in base and use it to reinforce Penal when they retreat.
3) Penal according to the balancing team are modeled after Pg. They where also mirror units in the early stage of the game. They are both semi elite stock infantry.
Penal are nothing like assault Grenadiers, assault grenadier need to close to gain an advantage Penal will beat grenadier and VG at long and at any range. And that is one of their major issue, contrary to other core infantry they are not balanced in respect to enemy infantry as it was done in September 9th, 2014 patch for every core infantry...
1- Because messing with conscripts is not gonna bring more issues and QQ than what we have now with Penals. Conscripts are deemed weak but they are still been built on a 2:1 ratio against Penals/Maxims. Problem of the later, is not how the unit should/could perform but rather spammability.
2- Sorry but that's ineffective as you are playing with 1 less squad and you have constant pop been occupied doing nothing.
3- Sorry to burst your bubble but too many things have changed since September 2014 and no longer hold true. IS doesn't beat Volks/Grens at all ranges if they are in cover? Volks against conscripts? Rifles against gren? I'm not talking about cost effectiveness but you can't expect to beat 1v1 something which have a cost disparity.
Also Penals are NOT CORE INFANTRY and shouldn't been.
PD: again, stop bringing merge as the SU savior tool because it makes your point look like a joke. You are just gonna convert on Nullist 2.0 (older users might remember). Merge hasn't been an issue on 2013 nor it will be in 2017.
Conscripts would be the defensive infantry. (I can give you a link to the complete suggestion)
The problem with reinforcement time is that merge simply bypasses that issue and any cost issue.
Early Penal access means that they can be the core infantry which is bad for a semi elite infantry...the only way to model Penal after Pg effectively is if they arrive at around the same time.That can only work either by delaying Penal or by moving Pgs are also in T1.
1- Then instead of having to adjust a single unit, now you are messing with 2 units, changing their role, performance, balance against other units, etc. AND i'ts out of scope
2- Merge isn't equal to reinforce as you still have a squad which is gonna be low on models, conscript models are still gonna have RA, micro and cost opportunity. You won't always have conscripts along Penals. Every time merge has been mentioned as a balance issue, reality show us that it didn't made balance concern.
3- WTF has PG to do with Penals? At the moment they are more of Assault grens lite than PG. Increase build time/reinforce time to.
If wilds ideas have to be taken into account, you could also try making them a 5 model squad instead of 6.
Doesn't really make much of a difference to me, many people that are currently serving can clarify on the NCOs being the leadership hand in the entire chain of command, down on the field they're the guys that do the heavy fighting alongside their men and commanding while any higher ranking officer can choose to be far out back.
So again, even if the "Penal Battalions" were made up out of ex commissars and/or officers I still wouldn't see the difference, they're still soft cap guys running towards you with barely any rifles or ammo.
But an upgrade that locks out close quarter assault packages sounds good to me, sort of.
Well, at least that discard the part of "they are civilians who barely know how to use a rifle".
Also the human wave attack style without munition/rifles was either as an attempt to break the german encirclement early on during the war when supply lines broke and divisions were scattered (so this is a general thing not Penal) or the example provided on the quote of workers and civilians "conscripted" into fighting on Stalingrad.
Assuming survival, someone thus sentenced could be restored to good standing, and even if killed, dying at the front instead of in the gulag or against a wall at least cleared a soldier’s record, allowing their family to collect their pension as due any other fallen soldier32 . This was an improvement, however slight, on the situation under Order 270 from 1941, which not only offered little alternative to a death sentence but also punished the families of the “traitors”33 .
Thus, there was an amount of incentive for soldiers serving to do well, and in the case of the shtrafbat, made up of officers, some even took a ‘perverse pride’ in their role, since they were under direction of the front level command, and generally used for missions with the greatest risk-reward34 . Especially later in the war, this became more true, as the strength of the penal units increased with augmentation to include better anti-tank capabilities and reconnaissance platoons35
Did they have higher rate of mortality than other divisions? Yes.
Were they unarmed? No more than any other normal infantry division. If you took the time to read the quote, you'll realise that the case of shortage of weapon/munition was: a general army issue during Operation Barbarrosa, a single Guard division during Stalingrad or the levies/civilians.
The only 2 instances of penal units I've seen I think are in Enemy at the Gates and Generation War, and neither were regarded as "Elite" units, better equipped than their ordinary counterparts.
Copypaste of an older post:
TL;DR: you have 2 versions of Penal troops. Officers-commissars on one side (battalion), NCO-common soldiers-prisoners (companies) on the other.
I think the main reason why Penals are so difficult to balance/design properly comes down to trying to balance an "Elite" squad than can potentially come in the first 30 seconds due to non-linear teching.
We can always increase build/reinforce time.
The problem IMO is having a sustainable army composed of 3+ Penals.
That is why I have suggested to turn them into cheap reverse (offensive instead of defensive) osttruppen infantry.
If ones chooses the path of making powerful they need to be delayed like PGs. Maybe requiring a second building.
Shocks and Guards where a disaster when moved to Cp 1.
What are conscripts then?
Flamer/Satchel charges could be gated behind both HQ upgrades respectively. If Penals takes longer to build n reinforce, then getting a slightly stronger unit concedes map presence early on and allows for more of 2v1 or "1.5v1" situations.
Reinforce cost lowered from 28 to 26
Grenade Assault munitions cost lowered from 45 to 30.
Grenade Assault aim-time and ready-aim time reduced by half to allow faster throwing.
Squad leader armour reduced from 1.5 to 1.
Medical kits removed.
Veterancy 1 now Grants -10% received accuracy and reduces recharge on sprint by 25%.
Separate post for V1.4:
There are good ones (specially ones which were ask for years) and some which will have big repercussions.
FINALLY:
Reduced the rate at which infantry-held anti-tank weapons would award veterancy
251 Flame Half-Track against garrison
Ghost Wire/Sand Bags
Minimap Icons
Bug Fixes
Stuart: does it really need it. Does it make a change? +10 pen is not gonna make OP i guess.
Penals: i think at this point the question should be, is it worth the effort of testing/tweaking to implement PTRS rifles on them? ATM i think that live Penals have enough flavour but they are OP in the sense of spamming them for 2v2+. The addition of AT satchel, changes to flamer, oorah and vet should be enough.
M3A1 Scout Car: i'm cautious regarding how fast it's gonna gain vet and the effects it could have the accuracy bonuses at vet2/vet3 early on.
T-70: i hope it's not TOO good.
Panzerfausts: why not only 1 change. In fact, why not only the deploying a truck to be applied? 25 seems a bit too few. I'm bargaining why not 30 from the start.
Kubelwagen: FINALLY the detection is changed to something more sensible. I'm just a little scared about shared veterancy and how fast it can vet. Specially since no human has use it's vet powers since the day of Kubeljesus. I'm interested on how passive repair and suppression is gonna perform, for a unit which can now capture points.
This patch is just so far off course and feels like community feedback is basically disregarded. If the final patch looks anything like what the WBP is currently, god help anyone who still wants to play this game in any competitive fashion.
Are you talking about Penals PTRS or the patch in general. While i don't like the idea/concept (PTRS Penals), i'm not as butthurt as the tree is not blocking the forest.
There is a huge number bugfixes and QOL changes implemented. Most of the balance changes are either good or in the right direction at least. Do you disagree with the following ones?
Long list:
As i said before, i'm opposed to PTRS Penals.
I've my doubts with how the new light vehicle/tank meta will play but nothing worst that what we have now. In this case, i think it's good that steady/reliable dps > burst/rng wipes.
PIATS are a hmmm change, worst for good players, better for bad ones. Different.
Really go here, look at the changelog and tell me most of it is trash.
Prepare yourself for the Allied Fanboys incoming saying, "OH! there's nothing wrong with Allies having the sole ability to plant click bait TNT where they want - "Cue the fat hamburger going into they're slimy mouth."
Prepare yourself for the Axis fanboys incoming saying, OH! here comes the Allied fanboys...
4 years of this back n forth arguments.
Brainstorming ideas:
1- Reduce cost to 80, remove invisibility but only targetable with minesweepers (small arms). AoE still works. Minefield treatment.
2- Reduce cost to 50, can only be placed on constructible objects (wire, tanktraps, sandbag...) and buildings.
This are the ones which can be implemented. For other concepts:
3- A CE/Commando/AssEngi must be nearby in order to be able to explode it
Just in the remote chance the units get's looked upon, i think you should be extremely careful on what you do with them (remember assault engineer spam).
Mine, flamer n demo makes its a worthwhile unit. In the past i thought a 5th guy at vet3 would solve it. Thinking about it a bit more, if something wants to be tested, i would just go for a small change on reinforce cost (30 per model).
The commander on itself is solid. Yes, Thompson upgrade is bad and you have RNG bombs, both of them could see some SLIGHT changes, but both tank call ins makes it "meta".
Well, you would thought that after 4 years we wouldn't had to discuss why Penals battalions are not performing as Osstruppen or worst (although Prostruppen are really good now) and ignoring the fact that they had perform as pseudo elite units since the release of the game.
Anyway, we have to wait to see what v1.4 will bring us.
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