I tested Penal fighting power todaz vs Grens and also a bit vs Volks.
They do very well, win most fights with ~3 models (sometimes 2, a little less often also 4) both in and out of cover at least when at range 20+ (have not tested below that except for running Volks into Penals from range 30). I tested vanilla Penals vs Volks/Gren vet 0, vet 3 and with Volks/Gren weapon upgrade at vet 0 and 3.
I think Penal scaling criticism might come down partially to over exaggeration. The other part are true factors like lack in utility/reinforce cost etc.
The point is that late game, the game focuses less and less on sitting 2 infantry in cover poking at each other as the pace gets faster and what shifts the balance of the game towards once side or the other is not prolonged engagements.
Read what Honeynuts says. Late game you want Shocks/Guards/Cons as replacements. The first gives you nade, smoke, resilient and offensive CQC unit. Guards have nade, utility snare and defensive capabilities with supplementary AT dmg. Cons (7man) are cheaper and takes longer to dislodge while making you bleed les, AT nades. Penals AT are good for punishing mistakes on vehicle micro, but vanilla Penals are fair, in the sense that they don't have anything that will give you an edge on an engagement by spending munitions on them (outside of blunder with a short range, long fuse satchel).
they have same vet as pPfusi, and they are claimed as the best scaling infantry
Scaling doesn't necessarily mean vet. Weapon upgrade (for that sweet dps concentration and dps boost through munition), nades, snares, AT, resilient to late game wipes, utility, cover creation, reinforce cost, reinforce speed, etc.
Penals are a great option early mid and fall flat on the later stages of the game, specially if you have to rebuild them. Conscripts are the completely opposite of them. PF are basically a middle ground between those two.
Didn't know they were nerfed. Thanks for info. Still - I really think that ost is one of the weaker factions in 1v1 (although after recent changes it is not that bad). The game is really well balanced for an assymetrical rts. Forum members must just sometimes read some opposite opinions to: mg42 is the best, ost mortar is the best, grens are best infantry, axis have better snares, p4 is better than all other mediums, ost has better armour so can have weak infantry, etc.
Been the best at something, doesn't mean it necessarily imbalanced or it makes things unfair. At the end of the day, something has to be the "best".
You can skip spoiler about units mentioned if TL;DR.
I'm nowhere near victim bubble. Grens suck compared to ther mainline. They are playable but many players try to avoid them. They are slightly cheaper but still suck. People keep repeating nonsense about ost - somebody needs to react.
The problem is that if you feel that you need to react specifically to a certain faction, i'm sorry but then you have a bias towards that faction.
People spew BS in the forums in every way. Allies OP, Axis OP. Some may have some truth behind them even if screamed and given no facts. Other are derivative of lack of knowledge + L2P.
If you can't seem to find it, that's a bad news coming your way.
Been biased is fine, everyone is in some or other way. Be it faction or playstyle. The problem is lying to yourself about not been biased.
That is a bloody good idea I was too afraid to suggest similar ideas as I think that this might be a bigger revolution than the sandbag. I'm also a bit scared that suggesting anything that can even indirectly buff ost is frowned upon on this forum (even if it is unbiased and logical).
But tbh I'd give those dsandbags a try.
There problem with sandbags, and specially small section ones, is that they end up been too prominent and have way more utility if given to units you expect 3/4 of them and possible be able to spam them till 5/6.
Bunkers on the other hand, do have a cost, can't be spammed anywhere, need an orientation, forces you to not use abilities and you have less control of the unit once inside of it.
The Ostheer crew members have actually fairly decent close range dps, the best of any team weapon by far. With all 3 men firing they manage to have about 10 dps out to 10 range. The USF weapon crews also manage to eek out a respectable 7.5 dps, with a little more useful dps at longer ranges. The other faction crew weapons are pretty much garbage and can be 100% ignored.
This pretty much means if you are trying to kill a full health mg42 or a USF 50 cal with a 1-2 model squad in close range you're gonna have a bad time.
This made me think, which is the best MG STOCK crew to counter light vehicles.
222, M3A1, Dodge, UC, Kubel.
Outside of safe bet of the 5 men of the maxim, i wonder who wins if they are all tested with 3 models total shooting.
Agree with all the above - but then grens should have it without doc as they will never be stock 5 models squad. One thing to be remembered - even if they get sandbags it is (in my opinion) not going to infuence the game much. It will probobly make the game less micro intensive for ost (no need to run around with pios that much) and let players surprise opponents with grens' positioning (not as predictable as map cover). It's just a detail that will make game better and reward skill. It may mean that some players will come back to building grens instead of skipping them. To make it even better you could remove bunker building ability from grens. It could be reserved for pios.
You are underestimating the impact of giving Grenadiers sandbags. It would be 10 times stronger than the change of letting Rifles build mines with 4 entities instead of 2.
Keeping one of the last tokens of asymmetry alive, i would like seeing tested, bunkers with cheaper build cost and most of the mp cost be moved towards the MG upgrade or healing upgrade, making the reinforce bunker competitive cost wise. No one is going to use 150mp bunkers as cover.
gren g43 have a very high moving accuracy allowing for a more offensive gameplay, the same time they are cheaper allowing 4 gren builds etc.
I personnaly think g43 are better then ppsh for cons any day, just saying they are useless isnt right at all, i personally use them all the time. They get used in tournaments too, and 2cp is very fast
Dont fix what aint broken
Merging 5 men grens with g43 would just make this game more stall, and 5 men isnt really an on the move upgrate (like g43) and would just make the game more stall and boring.
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