Profile of OZtheWiZARD

Jump back to quoted post24 Jul 2015, 11:00 AMTatatala

I think Comm Ash had the best solution in the other thread. Make it so that it can't suppress on the move, just like the Kubel.

It can then be fausted if moving, or hit with a PaK if stationary and in suppression mode.

All these other suggestions are either too lacklustre, or over nerf.


I don't think you can give it a setup time, like OKW flak, because it doesn't come automatically with quad.

Jump back to quoted post15 Jul 2015, 19:14 PMAerohank

Corrected for starting fuel, Soviets can tech to T3 pretty cheaply at 80 fuel. At 110 fuel they have enough to pump out a quad HT, or they can pump out a T70 at 150 fuel. It's easier to get these vehicles compared to pre-patch where the fuel thresholds were 150 and 190 respectively.

Ostheer tech on the other hand got more expensive fuel-wise. Corrected for starting fuel, and assuming the player builds T1, Otheer needs 150 fuel just to make the T3 building, and 240 fuel to pump out the Stug, the cheapest mobile unit that can deal with the quad HT or T70. The MP requirements to make these structures and battlephases is also considerably higher than the Soviet MP requirements.

The difference between 110/150 fuel and 240 fuel is huge, and made worse by the fact that the soviet light vehicle add a lot of map control. This forces the Ostheer to make T2 for the AT gun, which adds another 20 fuel on top of the 240 required to make a Stug, in addition to also requiring even more manpower for the T2 structure.

Now this is a problem, as it forces the Ostheer to be super-duper defensive for a long time. To see the root of this problem, you must analyse the tech trees and the units available for both factions.
First, lets look at the soviets:
- HQ upgrades (molos, AT nades) are separate from the tech tree and can be skipped.
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle, but one can be skipped.
- T3 can be made quickly and offers light tanks and a sturdy HT, which acts like a light tank due to its armor.
- T4 can be made at 170 fuel and offers medium armor.

Now, lets look at the Ostheer.
- HQ upgrades (LMG, rifle nade, panzerfaust) are cheaper but included in mandatory tech
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle
- T3 can be made at 150 (170 if T2 is made) and offers medium armor.
- T4 is expensive and offers semi-heavy tanks.


Once you compare the two, you will first notice that Soviet T4 and Ostheer T3 are pretty similar. You will also notice that the Ostheer really does not have an equivalent of Soviet T3, and Soviets do not really have an equivalent of Ostheer T4 (which they can optionally make up for with some doctrines).
Now, the one difference of this that is causing problems is the second observation: Namely that Ostheer has to 'jump' from infantry and light vehicles to medium tanks, with no cheap tier with light tanks in-between.

This 'jump' and the fast arrival of have a few nasty implications:
- Light vehicle play with Ostheer gets countered extremely fast by Soviet light tanks.
- Very 1-dimensional play where Soviets always have the initiative and Ostheer always has to defend for a long time.
- Map dominance acquired with light vehicles snow-balls into a huge fuel advantage, further increasing the distance of the 'jump' by reducing Ostheer fuel income.

So... Something has to change...
In my opinion, the 222 could be the solution.
For example:
Increase the cost of the 221 but buff its stats so that it deals with the M3 and can go head-to-head with the m20. Then, lock the 222 upgrade for the 221 behind BP2 upgrade but make it turn the 222 into something that can go head-to-head with the Quad HT, T70 and Stuart. Tune costs where required. The 222 could then form a bridge between Ostheer T2 and T3, so the player wouldn't have to jump.