I'd take away the WP off map and give the E8 WP. that fixes its AI issues without making critical mass OP like the old E8 that was an AI monster.
One could also try a fragmentation round (sorta like the is2 has but smaller obviously) or perhaps an ability to suppress a target area. So it's low AI is instead overcome by strong support ability that let's rifles shine
The idea should be that the E8 supplements the stock line up, not replaces it.
You mean like the mg causing suppressive fire thru an ability? That sounds fairly useful and would help with blobs if captain build is chosen. Or maybe a toggle with explosive rounds that do little damage but high suppression. |
But 85 still suffers from the same problems EZ8 suffers from anyway. Point is, IF EZ8 came with an overall better commander, it would have been fine addition to the army. But EZ8 is a "selling point" of the Rifle company, because other abilities are garbage. But EZ8 was never supposed to be a selling point of it, its just all the nerfs of the commander made it look like it is.
Its just the fact that EZ8 comes with USF version of ostheer "joint opperations" commander. Very specific, inflexible and fitted only for a specific type of play.
I agree with what you saying but supposed to is past tense, at this point it is the only reason to choose Rifle Company. One of my biggest issues with Rifle Company is Rifle Defenses, Advanced Infantry and the Halftrack are contradictory. Rifle defense promotes turtle based play from an aggressive faction, where Advance Infantry gives a flamethrower to a squishy unit but no sprint to make use of it. Flares to Rifle for more sight however the tank commander also gives sight so one is redundant and sprint to the rifleman which is only useful in certain scenarios. The halftrack comes to late to be used as a clown car so you got to use it defensively as part of a turtle strategy.
These 3 abilities form a weird passive aggressive grouping that needs some omph which is expected to come from the E8.
So either the rest of the commander needs to get buffed or the E8. |
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I have been using this commander with varying levels of success. Usually lose in the late game due to my lack of micro.
I have been using Penal builds with a conscript for crewing and merge do you know off hand what the bonus are and what percentages they are? I am also trying to use the Commisar better and you described me perfectly with the fear and nades. |
The E8 demolishes a P4J too, because it has more hitpoints and more armor. It's an excellent vehicle against all medium tanks.
But the game generally does not work that way. Tanks do not suddenly appear en masse in a vacuum. You'd be getting a Sherman out first while Axis get a P4(J) and they are going to cause bleed to your infantry while also having an advantage in the armor match up. Then you're getting a Jackson while they are getting a second P4, a TD or a Panther and you'll be down even more in AI bleed. With E8s you can just keep stacking them, dealing decent AI damage while also dominating the tank engagements until the Axis are forced to invest in a Panther or a heavy to deal with the E8s, at which point you'll have enough of them (2-3) to fight that off too. This is exactly the reason the 76mm was the dominating meta over the past months.
Demolishes is a rather strong word for the performance. Doesn't the E8 have 215 armor and P4J have 234?
Doesn't the Sherman have better AI so wouldn't a similarly competent player cause more bleed? A second Ost P4 would lose, P4J would be zoned out and the tank destroyers wouldn't cause any more bleed due to their horrific AI however I would expect the Panther to cause the scales to tip in favor of axis however due to cost I would have a time of opportunity to attack. But since you said 2-3 and included a heavy, 1 Sherman and 2 Jackson would demolish any Heavy while having smoke to retreat.
Also the 76mm had vastly superior ROF due to base stats plus VET along with 15 fuel cheaper cost which allowed and encouraged blobbing. The E8 doesn't have those perks.
Would you be against keeping everything as is but increasing the price of the Tank commander to say 70 muni while giving it the ability to call down a arty stike? Maybe something like the first Shell of the 240 artillery from Armor company. That way the commander has a way to deal with emplacements /PAK43 /Howitzer. A shared cooldown between all E8 to keep it balanced. |
Um, penetration values for other tanks is pretty useful to give you a sense of just how good the Easy-8 is at countering armor compared to other tanks. I'd love to hear why you think it's bad versus armor given it's extra health, better armor, .75 moving accuracy, and good penetration (especially compared to other mediums). Oh, and now you can get a tank commander to be self spotting with extra accuracy and at Vet 1 you can get extra range and even more penetration. And no "I can't get good results with it so it must be trash" isn't an acceptable answer.
I get what your saying but like people have said already that argument only works in a 1v1 tank fight. It does not take into consideration the rest of the army composition. Comparing to the regular Sherman the extra health and armor are nice but you wouldn't be using the Sherman to solo push a P4 or better anyways. Both have .75 moving accuracy and the good pen of the E8 stops being good at a P4J. But now I can get that tank commander along with VET1 ability for more range and extra penetration. So I need to pay more for a tank, upgrade then vet it to do what I wanted it to do to begin with along with losing mobility which my faction is known for.
Now for the Jackson the extra health and armor no longer factor due to the Jackson range keeping it out of harms way. The Jackson obviously pens better and its ability which also increases penetration and damage does not have a corresponding loss to mobility.
Now if we look at it as a 2 tank per side battle it gets even worse. Using both a non-doctrinal Sherman and Jackson vs 2 E8. The Sherman covers all of the Jacksons deficiencies and vice versa while being cheaper than the 2 E8. |
That's not how the game works. The E8 can and will reliably beat p4s where the m4 is disadvantaged. The E8 is even more valuable against okw where the medium tank match up leaves usf on the back foot.
USF doesn't want for AI anywhere so it's lower AI isnt the end of the world if it denies your enemy tank supremacy.
The issues lie in it being doctrinal, and it competing with the Jackson for an AT role. Those and the fact the tank isn't really that FUN (this I suppose is in part because of its lower AI)
Like I said, make it a limited to 1 command unit and it gives it much more room to be unique and not overlap so much. As I think, it might be required to be HARD capped at 1per game due to the crew, or at the very least with an extreme cooldown to prevent stacking up.
But back to your point there is no denying that the E8 has good stats. It can bounce all standard AT and requires a Panther as a means to guarantee penatrations. This is undeniable. There is no spin. Stats are stats. E8 CAN bounce even pak shots at range (the chance is slim but it CAN) it is one of the only allied mediums in the game that has that chance. It's not debatable. It's one of the only allied mediums that can bounce shreks. Again, this is beyond contestation.
The tank is underwhelming. I agree with that, but imo it's a fun factor not a Stat issue. This is not fact but opinion.
My issue with what your saying is only the Ost P4 gets reliably beat, the OKW does not. E8 has the advantage but it is not as large as the Panther vs E8. In other words, the P4J beats the Sherman, Panther beats E8 unless rng goes catastrophically wrong. Where does the E8 fit in, it is supposed to be AT focused but does not excel which is why I ask for more armor or health.
I was thinking maybe change the Tank commander benefits from increased sight and accuracy to a damage reduction similar to what the Pershing got. With this the E8 becomes a true brawler which wont dominate the Panther/JP4 head to head but will allow for longer fights or to simply overwhelm thru attrition. Maybe charge 70-100 muni. |
This may be on purpose. Check the territory around the houses. The houses may not reside in any territory.
It is usually best to not design a map around a certain unit or commander. But it is the mappers discretion to do so, especially in a 1v1 situation to make it better for tournament play.
Thanks, I wasn't sure since the houses by the gas didn't seem to be in any territory. Your reasoning makes sense, do you think it has a chance to be changed now that Forward headquarters is CP2. |
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Not sure if this is a bug or was meant to be on purpose.
On the Bocage map, none of the building are able to be converted to a Forward Headquarters from Urban defense. |
Well there you have it. Or user error. Easy 8 has 155 far penetration (more than M10 without AP ammo) bouncing shots is never going to be Easy 8's problem but of course it's not going to have TD level Pen. For comparison OKW P4 has 110 Far Penetration. Now, if you're trying to use Easy 8s against KTs or other super heavies then yes it's going to bounce more but that's why they added the new Vet 1 ability. Talking about it's AI performance is neither here nor there as it's intended role isn't AI but it has the perk of having SOME AI compared to dedicated tank destroyers.
Thanks for the response.
I think I was at mid range but like we said bad roll. I completely forgot that the tank commander doesn't provide the range bonus its is part of Focus Gunnery so that is my my fault. Seems like the optimal set up for the E8 would be MG with VET1 always on and playing at long range unless a Panther comes along. |
I suggest you next post is after 10+ games...
Well I played with the unit not stop vs CPU during the BETA so not much changed stat wise after final BETA version. The main difference is obviously strategy of a live person vs CPU with inflated resources. People still had the same problems as you can see in the USF balance thread.
Do you have any actual suggestions or personal feedback since you seem to always give condescending answers to anything you don't like. |
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