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Thread: 15-0 Bloodbath27 Oct 2013, 16:27 PM
thank you to captain obvious for the fun gg! Haven't had such a hard fought, close game in ages In: Replays |
Thread: how to: Level 100 German Play27 Oct 2013, 15:30 PM
I fully agree, because what you are forgetting is that while that soviets might take more work to use, they dominate when used properly. Its frustrating as hell seeing cheap conscripts oorah in front of your mg, HTD, throw a molotov and laugh before they even get suppressed. An MG42 takes less micro to set up, but will achieve less as well. The answer is probably rebalancing the roles and strengths of the soviet meta to give individual units more passive staying power (aka shooting from cover) and de-emphasizing through a faction tweak overhaul the power of abilities In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Shocked at how easy Germans are.27 Oct 2013, 15:23 PM
We have to be careful of anecdotal "evidence" for one side being stronger than the other at all levels of play because everyone's experience in games will be different. New players of either faction are by definition not able to play as effectively as a veteran because they are still learning, therefore I think the only logical way to balance the game is using the top tiers as the standard. If a game is balanced evenly for the pros, then that should filter down to everyone else where a 500 ranked player vs a 500 ranked player will win because of their own skill--not a super cheese strategy or unit. And that means fun for everyone of all ranks In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: [Feedback Needed] So explain to me...27 Oct 2013, 15:06 PM
Thanks for the continuing feedback guys. As I collect my thoughts and your responses I will eventually try to make an itemized list of actionable changes that can be made to the game to improve the fun and challenge for everyone. Theory is great but I want to also provide some recommendations on the off chance relic listens. @Ginnungagap Your are spot on with your post. I think you have highlighted exactly another flaw in the current meta for both sides: Relying on doctrinal units to counter non-doctrinal units. Just like I don't enjoy being forced to save for a clunky elefant, many soviet players are tired of feeling required to use a Guards commander. To me a doctrinal unit call-in should add support or perform a niche role in an army that you couldn't get otherwise. Every counter you mentioned to strong soviet combos is from a specific doctrine. Not only that but to counter snipers/su85s you mentioned units from TWO separate doctrines. And each is essentially a soft counter--mortar halftracks with incendiaries is no more a hard counter to snipers than an 81mm or an off-map artilery call-in. It takes skill and luck to make work. On the other hand the soviet sniper team is a hard counter to ostheer snipers. @Nullist Molotovs are also something I've been thinking a lot about lately. The utility they give from start to finish is just unparalleled for their price point and early arrival. You might be on to something with reducing the crit chance and upping the base damage for all flame weapons. That would punish you for standing and fighting for extended periods in flames while reducing the shock value. Relic did something similar with the kv-8, although its still quite strong. I am pretty tempted to advocate for a cost increase to molotovs as well, probably to a 20-25 mun price point as part of an overall overhaul of the faction. @Array I would love to see greater communication from Relic regarding both their next upcoming patch and vision for the game balance. I understand they err on the side of caution because they like to give themselves wiggle room to make changes without inspiring premature flame wars over a specific nerf... but at some point the greater community CAN and should help. The Forward HQ exploit on release was completely avoidable through testing. Similarly the issues with AGrens and Ostruppens could have used a gut check from the community Does Relic have any kind of open beta build they allow the community to test before patches? Similar to how EVE has SISI and TQ? In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: how to: Level 100 German Play27 Oct 2013, 00:06 AM
The key to soviets is using the abilities in concert with well-micro'd combined arms. A LMG gren will kill a conscript squad 1:1 everytime, but if you start stacking advantages like HTD, molotovs, PPSH, mines, trip wires, whatever then the ostheer player will have trouble staying on the field. It takes more work and thusly seems like the soviet faction is weaker, but I say its stronger once you master all the moving parts needed to dominate. Actively using unit abilities is key for the soviets as most of their units will lose in even matchups if you rely on simply shooting each other. I am assuming thats partly why abilities like molotovs and oorah are so cheap. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: [Feedback Needed] So explain to me...26 Oct 2013, 23:50 PM
I see you've ignored all the corresponding advantages of the Ostheer in your write-up. The point of the thread isnt to obsess over a single unit's balance or lack there of, its to point out my belief that after having played this game for months since release that the soviet faction ultimately rewards good micro and play more effectively than ostheer. Naturally both factions need tweaking in their units to keep the game competitive (buff penals and m3, seriously). Su-85 have long been joked about as needing an elefant to counter. <- just an example, not the point of my thread I think this is fundamentally due to a few things in particular, namely the non-linear soviet tech system, commander call-in utility, disparity between reliance on munitions, and weapon range advantage that gives the soviet a very strong position to fight from. Some have argued that the germans are actually more flexible because they are forced to get t2 which gives them more unit options than a sov skipping t2, but the truth is the ostheer units are more generalist--the sov player has the choice of doctrines/tiers to decide which specialist units compliments his play the best for that game. As wongtp posted above, my push in the replay was for a p4 ASAP to counter the expected sov vehicle rush. Had my opponent rushed t3 could I have really held on by foregoing t3 and trying to hold for t4 or a heavy? Not in coh2, maybe in vcoh...but this isn't vcoh. @UGBEAR I stand by my record, and yes its pretty much pure ostheer play. But please tell me the part where playing germans doesnt require having to defend against strong sov strategies and exploit their weaknesses to win. You dont have to play 500 soviet games to know that a kv-8 is a shock unit that will murder-rape an infantry squad up close. Soviets can float more munitions because their units are less reliant on expensive upgrades to perform needed roles. Cheaper unit ability costs and mines (molotov 15 mun, oorah 10 mun, 30 mun mine, etc etc) means the sov player has more ability to influence the battle directly through his own micro instead of relying on the passive strength of a unit shooting another unit. This is an example of why I say high level play gives the soviet player more opportunity to excel. The risk/reward of spending munitions early game is minimal for the soviet player as he can reasonably expect to hold his own mun point while harassing the other and is not forgoing the equivalent of an LMG on his conscript or med bunker upgrade by throwing a few nades. ========================================= What I really want to see from this game in the future is the redesign of cheese units/abilities on both sides (looking at you ostruppen, precision strike, and t70s), what the german commanders in particular bring to the table meta wise, and the leveling of the economies to make a munition point just as valuable for a sov player as for a ostheer player. Risk/reward and unit counters at different stages of the game need to be looked into. COH is not a franchise like supreme commander where its fun to see units instantly pop to a flying death laser... the fun comes from being able to react and counter-attack. I think when this incremental and gradual process moves along, the game will be more competitive and more fun for everyone. I don't favor either faction balance wise because both have rough edges that need smoothing. My point is that as far as I can tell now, the soviets simply need more changes or a redesign. Relic and the community should admit this and make a coherent plan going forward to address the meta in the game. This thread is attempting to draw awareness to the need. And at the end of the day its just my opinion, but I wouldn't post it without giving the issue careful thought and signing it as my honest opinion to improve the game for everyone, favoring neither ostheer or sov players In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: [Feedback Needed] So explain to me...26 Oct 2013, 18:23 PM
My tl;dr is not t70t70t70, but I bring it up because its the current flavor of the month that everyone, new and old player alike, is using because there isnt a hard counter for it 10 mins in for the ostheer. It's just so effective! Notice I say hard counter: 1. Mines blow it up in 1 hit 95% of the time, but that 60 munition mine is a key choice to make between an LMG, flamer, or a mine. Soviets are not faced with critical munition risk/reward choices early game, nor do they face a unit that requires planning play around aside from a squishy FHT. 2. Who has 120 munitions lying around in a 1v1 10 mins into a game? Oh right, soviets T70s will kite them, and snipe them on the retreat. 3. You shouldnt have a p4 or ostwind out 10 mins into a tough game if the soviet playing is doingitrite with his rush. Soviets have countered the issue of mines or an early stug/pak by simply getting multiple and rushing them from an unexpected direction (aka not the main road)... see stalingrad blitz tactics guide. Back on point the t70 IS OP IMO, however its a symptom of the overall soviet design, not the problem in itself. Any advice you want to give is welcome, you might see something I missed. I honestly want all feedback and a discussion of soviet meta that doesnt devolve into "this unit is op" or "learn to play", but rather highlight the systemic failure in design this faction is victim of In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Shocked at how easy Germans are.26 Oct 2013, 18:15 PM
from my other thread which touches on this: http://www.coh2.org/topic/9633/feedback-needed-so-explain-to-me... "3. New players will have trouble playing soviets because 1 on 1 units will lose to their ostheer counterpart. On the other hand a pro with good micro can use every unit's strengths at the same time for perfect combined arms. I don't believe the germans have an equivalent meta that flourishes in high level play and rewards skillful micro to that extent. Everyone likes to claim german is OP because it takes less skill to use them... but that myth is brought back to reality when high level play just demonstrates the units arent strong enough to handle soviet role specialization (snipers, su85s, t70s) in a close match, short of a significant failure in play by soviet micro." In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: [Feedback Needed] So explain to me...26 Oct 2013, 17:51 PM
Edit: This thread is an evolving flow of my thoughts on the matter, but the point of this post is to draw community awareness to my belief that the current design of the game is subtly flawed and needs addressing, in particular regard to the soviet faction. Any tips or feedback you can give me on my attached replay is welcome too! ============== You've probably seen a post claiming one side is too strong 100x here already, but I affirm this is not another clueless whine thread. I've sunk 500 games into high elo+ ostheer play, and among many others, have beat the streaming celebrities' soviet multiple times each. I have seen what works and doesnt, and know how to micro. I'm genuinely looking for quality feedback on both my play and the state of the coh2 meta. Check out this replay for a tough game and a perfect example of what I mean. REPLAY HERE Explain to me how to beat the synergy of soviet HTD scripts/at nades + guards + snipers + su85 + 30mun mines + munition float for whatever you want (cough strafe cough) in a 1v1. Abstract This is a long post because the situation is very complicated and requires numerous examples so you understand where I am coming from. 1. The soviet meta is fundamentally slightly OP when played by a pro because the units and economy synergize perfectly with their commanders and each other. The germans lack hard counters to certain units at various stages of the game, such as the inevitable t70 rush. Germans lack commanders, other than AG or ostruppen, that allow for radically different builds. 2. The imbalance comes from the sum total of small aspects about the many soviet units and meta that are strong acting in concert, and come to the fore when facing someone with good micro. Its less that a particular unit is game breaking than the entire faction under its current design is slightly OP because of how the parts all fit together. 3. New players will have trouble playing soviets because 1 on 1 units will lose to their ostheer counterpart. On the other hand a pro with good micro can use every unit's strengths and abilities at the same time for perfect combined arms. I don't believe the germans have an equivalent meta that flourishes in high level play and rewards skillful micro to that extent. Everyone likes to claim german is OP because it takes less skill to use them... but that myth is brought back to reality when high level play just demonstrates the units arent strong enough to handle soviet role specialization (snipers, su85s, t70s) in a close match, short of a significant failure in play by soviet micro. What I really want to see from this game in the future is the redesign of cheese units/abilities on both sides (looking at you ostruppen, precision strike, and t70s), what the german commanders in particular bring to the table meta wise, and the leveling of the economies to make a munition point just as valuable for a sov player as for a ostheer player. Risk/reward and unit counters at different stages of the game need to be looked into. COH is not a franchise like supreme commander where its fun to see units instantly pop to a flying death laser... the fun comes from being able to react and counter-attack. I think when this incremental and gradual process moves along, the game will be more competitive and more fun for everyone. I don't favor either faction balance wise because both have rough edges that need smoothing. My point is that as far as I can tell now, the soviets simply need more changes or a redesign. Relic and the community should admit this and make a coherent plan going forward to address the meta in the game. This thread is attempting to draw awareness to the need. And at the end of the day its just my opinion, but I wouldn't post it without giving the issue careful thought and signing it as my honest opinion to improve the game for everyone, favoring neither ostheer or sov players =================== MYTH: Soviet t4 rushes are countered by a competitive early game to prevent quick t4 unit proliferation. REALITY: The reality is and has always been that soviet t4 is cheap enough to get with only a single fuel point held before or at the same time as german t3, or even t2. Not t4, but t3! Germans won't get t4 out except in a troll game or a desperate attempt to counter su85s like in my replay, which failed horribly. Soviet early game is not hampered by teching as their t0 building provides all the utility they need to go toe to toe with t1 and t2 ostheer with doctrinal support. For all intents and purposes the soviets have two t3s that they can choose between as they like. Many players would rush a t70 and then spam su85s because the cost of getting both buildings if you have 1 fuel reliably is basically irrelevant if you are holding your own. 1. Panthers cost twice as much mp as a su85 and 15 more fuel. Not including the fuel cost of the t4 upgrade and building. Panthers are not a hard counter to su85s IMO, which out range them and whose guns can penetrate frontal armor fairly reliably. 2. Soviets can afford to skip t3 because aside from a squishy and easily killed FHT (mines, guards, at nades, whatever), there is no rushed unit they need to be worried about. 3. People have been so busy spamming t70s/t34s that the old meta has fallen out of favor, not because its not OP anymore but because people got bored of it. MYTH: Long ranged direct fire units are balanced REALITY: 1. Weapon range is the single most important vehicle stat in coh2, and often with range comes weapon power per shot. The ability to shoot across the map from beyond a monitor's width of screen resolution negates any downside to move speed. This problem is not limited to the su85 alone, but the elefant is also stupidly long ranged. 2. Soviets have many long range options that feed each other, specifically snipers for AI and su85 for AT, with an su76 for fun if you want quick IDF. 120mm outranges 81mm mortars, and the precision strike ability is button to get a free kill on whatever squad is trying to cap a point or use a support weapon. 3. The unit cap is not that high in coh2, especially for ostheer with 4 man squad limits. Combined arms become extremely difficult to pull off when your squads and vehicles are picked off or forced to retreat one by one by snipers/su85s before even handling the rest of the support units on the field. Losing a vehicle or a couple squads from your attack to sniper units means you are permanently on the defensive and being pushed off the map. 4. Certain maps like langres, mowscow outskirts, pripyat winter and minsk pocket really emphasize the advantages of supported long range units. Example One: 30 munition mines for a faction that doesnt require regular munition use to stay competitive leads to lane denial and map control, that in the long run, will lead to an even larger munition/fuel/vp? lead over the ostheer player. Lack of munitions will make it harder for an ostheer to field LMGs or rifle nades, which can be required to deal with conscripts using HTD and PPSH. The german completely lack a useful AI mine, especially at that price point. It would be much less effective against soviet squad sizes of 6. Losing 1-2 conscripts does not force a retreat like losing 2-3 grens does. Example Two: No real hard counter exists for sov sniper teams. Soviet snipers are not vulnerable to counter sniping. Soft counters like AC and 81mm mortars are stopped dead by supporting units/mines and the luck factor. German snipers face more perils in use as they are a 1 man squad, squishy vs IDF (120mm precision strike anyone?, or just unlucky RNG), many IDF cdr abilities, zis IDF, su76 IDF, whatever. Sov snipers synergize well with 30 munition mines because they can instantly pick off the survivors of a planned ambush with impunity and almost no time to react. In this example the soviet sniper's dps is fine, what is OP is the fact that 30 munition mines are not a risky proposition for a soviet player to use. The risk/reward proportion is out of balance for that item and sov snipers take advantage of that. Example Three: Near and dear to my heart is the fact that without molotovs, ostheer are unable to reliably control key buildings on certain maps in t0. Every game devolves into a rush by players to stand next to a fuel/cutoff's building in case the enemy shows up. Jump inside, win. Difference is the germans can be forced out by soviet molotovs. If you dont rush your fuel defensively as a german, you WILL be cutoff 2 mins in and vulnerable to t70 rushes. GG. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: For Discussion26 Oct 2013, 17:50 PM
Hosted for linking on this thread: http://www.coh2.org/topic/9633/feedback-needed-so-explain-to-me... In: Replays |
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