Profile of Mauser

I would also like to see that. Provided the players are at least a decent skill level.

EDIT: Link0, I see you are rank 44 germans and rank 47 soviets. I immediately have more respect for your opinion and I would now really like to see a replay of how you use stugs (also against su85's) please please. I really love the stug and would like to learn how to use it better in its current state.

I think both AT guns should get a damage and pen buff, and maybe a range increase to 65. Then the pak would slightly out-range an su85 if you have a spotter for it. The zis is currently more useful and surviveable than the pak but it too could use the same buff.

Thing with at-guns is they usually only get one or maybe 2 shots off before the enemy moves into fog or out of the arc. Thus those shots really need to count and currently they just scatter/miss too much and dont deal enough damage.

Thanks for proving my point of the ladder needing to be well thought out and smartly setup. A ladder that rewards u for spamming games regardless of win or lose is a bad ladder.

Still vastly disagree with ladders not being capable of reflecting skill.

Remember the in game rank is not a ladder rank, it is simply an xp meter like the 'levels' in dota you get for playing games.

I agree the xp-meter of rank 1 to 100 is kindof dumb, and only shows how much time you spent on the game, but this can be fixed if they dont cap it at 100, so you see the total xp of all time. In addition it can show your steam ladder ranking/league, which it hopefully will in future.

The coh2.org ladder is a proper elo+ (according to skill) ladder.

I have been quite active in the thread since its start, and I agree some arguments are repeated and will keep being repeated unless the problem is fixed. If the discussion stops, it will indicate a tacit acceptance of the current meta, which is frankly not quite balanced yet regarding specifically the su85.

Arguments also evolve as players learn to play more, and are (hopefully) not just repeated blindly. The recent addition of https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0 also helps a lot to understand the unit stats vs cost debacle.

The su85 is a one stop shop for anti armor, and that is a single unit, nevermind a single tier. SU76 and katyusha counters infantry, so russians have even more of a one stop shop hard counter everything in one tier. I wasn't comparing su85 and stug in a vacume, i was comparing them by their roles as tank destroyers within a larger army composition.

The su85 range and spotting is still a problem and its still easy to just reverse away after de-activating focus sight. They have the armor penetration of a panther(SU85 and panther both have 170 armor pen) SU85 has more armor than a p4 or a stug(180 compared to 160 for p4 and stug), while being faster than a stug with more hitpoints and costing the same as a p4.

SU85 also deals more damage than panthers since they reload significantly faster(4.25s vs 6.7s for panther). Seeing as they both do 160 damage per shot and have 170pen, it means that the su85 does ~58% more damage per second than a panther! Yes, gentlemen the 115 fuel su85 out classes a 170 fuel tank which primary role is also tank killing since panthers suck vs infantry. That's just too many perks for such a cheap unit in comparison. (Not to mention once they reach vet 2 lol!)

Now I know panthers have more armor and HP than the su85, but the SU-85 is shooting at p4's and stugs at the important stages of the game, not at panthers cos teching to panthers happens so rarely. SU85 still has 60 range when it de activates focus sight and can still shoot that far when reversing, given sight by friendly units/control points.

The range on the SU85 is 60, meaning it out ranges all german non doctrinals by 10 or 20 range. In practise this means they get off a shot or two extra, maybe more if they keep backing up. This only adds to why their damage is so significant. Even if you get spotting scopes, you are still gonna take a couple of hits before you are even in range to shoot back. Sure you can flank by driving around the other side of the map, but now you are taking a huge risk since your tanks will be very vulnerable to mines/at nades/ hidden zis/ button etc etc. Im not saying i dont want to flank, its just that i feel forced to flank while the russian can get away without flanking.

Stugs counter T34's all right that's true, but due to the parallel tiering of russians, they can get su85's out quick if they dont go for t3, while germans have to wait until 5 command points and 270 fuel for a reliable counter to it which is the slow doctrinal elefant. Germans need another way of dealing with su85 or people will still keep spamming them. The SU85 doesn't encourage creative flank-tactics, with combined-arms play. Instead it rewards camping with snipers, guards and 120mm mortars while not having real drawbacks/risks.

Either paks need to reliably counter them or stugs need a range increase, or SU85 needs a significant cost increase. SU-85 is still too good for its cost, and there isn't a german unit that forces creative flanking from the russians in the way that the su85 forces germans to do risky flanking maneuvers(at least until an elefant shows up which is slow as fuck and actually vulnerable to flanks since it cant just reverse away that quick).